Playing two hands versus one?

[cyclinggimpe]

.... some people think that they are doing right thing, but all those fake theories drain their walet very fast.

Cardc Couning has to do with probability and yes it takes long long time to see it effect.

Raising your bets when you are winning, or playing 2 spots when you are winning instead of one doesn't change the odds. Playing with more money, you just end up losing your money faster.

Theory "table going my way" or "table not going my way" are not valid and everybody knows that they are hunches. You can't prove them. They are prediction of future, and as far as I know nobody is able to do it except maybe Nostradamus.

You are talking about non-CSM machines though, correct? I am talking about my experiences with CSM machines. Also, the dealer only takes his up card and then takes his second card after all the players have played their hands (another disadvantage).

I started to learn card counting; I even timed myself with a deck of cards and got it down to 30 sec and then read all the posts about how card counting is useless with CSM's so I stopped.

You guys keep talking about card counting being a more proven way of betting; but, tell me how to use it effectively with CSM's? You disapprove of my way of betting with CSM's; so, tell me how to play correctly then? I know I should stay clear of these casinos but this is all we have up here.

The only way to make money for me is to either increase my bet when I think I'm on a winning streak (which doesn't always work) or play 2 spots once in awhile. I wouldn't play 2 spots always. Splitting and doubling down just gets me to sometimes come out even at the end of the day, and once in awhile maybe $50 ahead.

I'm sure if I was a professional gambler I wouldn't play BJ in Canada because of these machines. But I like gambling and interacting with people and I like having fun.

Anyway, I think everyone agrees that no one can predict what cards the dealer will be dealing next. And if the dealer wins most hands, you'll probably lose all your money anyway no matter what. So if you're on a winning streak, why not take advantage of the situation for as long as you keep raking in the chips and then go back to one spot (or leave) when you start losing chips? If you only go in with a small amount of cash anyway, what's the big deal? I go in with money that I won't miss and lot's of times I lose it playing 1 hand not 2.

 

[BAMA21]

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with the way you are playing, Cyclinggimpe. It might not exactly suit my tastes; but then again, I doubt if my system would suit yours either. In the end, it is your money; and you play for your own reasons.

I really don't think everybody should be pressured to count cards or play a certain way, because everybody isn't in the same position, doesn't have the same abilities, doesn't have the same goals, etc. There is noting at all wrong with taking "disposable income" to the casino and "spending" it on an evening of entertainment. And if it weren't for a lot of people doing just that, the casinos would take the tables out, leaving the professional card counters with nowhere to pursue their game.

I'll also say that, while they can't be predicted, nobody can deny that streaks exist. I have won my share of money at the blackjack tables from betting with streaks and from betting against streaks. I know what the long-term math says; but I also know that I play in the short term.

 

[BJStanko]

Proper way to play.....

You are talking about non-CSM machines though, correct? I am talking about my experiences with CSM machines. Also, the dealer only takes his up card and then takes his second card after all the players have played their hands (another disadvantage).

I started to learn card counting; I even timed myself with a deck of cards and got it down to 30 sec and then read all the posts about how card counting is useless with CSM's so I stopped.

You guys keep talking about card counting being a more proven way of betting; but, tell me how to use it effectively with CSM's? You disapprove of my way of betting with CSM's; so, tell me how to play correctly then? I know I should stay clear of these casinos but this is all we have up here.

The only way to make money for me is to either increase my bet when I think I'm on a winning streak (which doesn't always work) or play 2 spots once in awhile. I wouldn't play 2 spots always. Splitting and doubling down just gets me to sometimes come out even at the end of the day, and once in awhile maybe $50 ahead.

I'm sure if I was a professional gambler I wouldn't play BJ in Canada because of these machines. But I like gambling and interacting with people and I like having fun.

Anyway, I think everyone agrees that no one can predict what cards the dealer will be dealing next. And if the dealer wins most hands, you'll probably lose all your money anyway no matter what. So if you're on a winning streak, why not take advantage of the situation for as long as you keep raking in the chips and then go back to one spot (or leave) when you start losing chips? If you only go in with a small amount of cash anyway, what's the big deal? I go in with money that I won't miss and lot's of times I lose it playing 1 hand not 2.

......CSM is to avoid them complitely.

Since you said you play for fun and money that you won't miss if you lose than it is different. Since you are already playing CSMs and playing for fun, your goal in the game would be TO HAVE FUN AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. In order to do this you will have to lose lose smallest amount of money possible. The best way to do this is to play perfect basic strategy with flat betting. Theri is big problem with this king of betting. IT IS EXTREMELY BORING. Betting this way you will not reach your goal of having fun. So I would recommend you something like 1-2-3 betting progression.

I am in New Orleans right now having fun, but not gambling (games are not good as far as I heard) and I am not even going to bother.

HAVE FUN!
GOOD LUCK!

 

[cyclinggimpe]

Yeah, I know CSM's are to be avoided; but, you play with what you have.

I do sometimes increase my bet and sometimes do well with it.

One day I'll check out the casinos in Washington state to see how they compare to up here. There's a bus that goes daily to one daily I think so I wouldn't have to worry about driving.

 

[E-town-guy]

I don't want to get into the whole discussion about playing two hands but I suggest that you make a complaint every now and then about the CSM with the dealer and pit boss. Try to get other players to do the same. They might not ever get rid of them but at least you've tried.

 

[nightfoxx]

bet spread disguise

if you do card count, and at a point when you know that you have an advantage, you start betting in two spots in order to place more money in action for a greater expected return, can this be used to disquise bet spread or do casino's see right through that ploy?

also would there be greater variance involved with playing two hands of $50 or one hand of $100 or can they be treated the same in that respect?

thanks

 

[JJcoolL830]

variance as you increase hands played

Simple statistics state that as you increase your sample size (number of hands played) variance will decrease. I would expect to see more variance in playing one hand at $100 than two hands at $50. In other words, on average you will see less fluctuation in losses (and winnings for that matter) by playing two or more hands.

 

[BAMA21]

Yes, more spots equates to less varriance, at least in my understanding.

I may be entirely off base on this though; but to me, playing multiple spots sometimes, but not others, is a sure tip-off that the player is a counter. First off, I don't see a lot of people playing at tables where they have room to spread to two or three spots at will. And secondly, if I were the pit boss, I'd have to ask myself just how this person decides when to spread to two spots and when to go back to one. THat is just my opinion; but I always think "possible counter" when I see someone playing heads up against a dealer; and I always think "possible counter" when I see someone playing multiple hands in a seemingly random way.

 

[Mikeaber]

<<LOL>> The last two trips to Vegas, while playing at my casino of choice (from other posts, you can probably figure out which one it was) the dealer encouraged me several times to play two spots....but she was doing that so that I could choose who was to play next to me! Most of the time, it was because my neighbor was a very unpleasant dude <LOL>.

I don't think that they pay a lot of attention to playing two spots unless it is completely obvious that the player is taking advantage of them successfully. Oh, they take note of it but do not dwell on it from what I've seen. I would play the spot until it became obvious that I was loosing. Most of the time, playing two spots just sort of insured one spot against the other (ie, break even by winning one and loosing the other.) I don't make a habit of it.

 

[Mikeaber]

Twist

Counters playing two spots:

Question:

Let's say you are and playing with two or three others at the table. You have a 1-5 spread. The true count is -6 in a double deck game.

Would it not make sense to play two spots at the minimum bet to "eat up" the expected low cards and then pull back to one spot when the TC got back positive?

I dunno....would this strategy be more likely to keep you off the radar or do you think it would just draw more attention from the pit?

 

[nightfoxx]

2 hands vs 1

Would playing 2 (or more) hands in high counts be beneficial because it decreases the variance and allows a greater bet spread or would these advantages be offset by the fact that you will have less rounds of hands at the higher count than if you were only playing one hand.

This is an example of what i mean... at true count of 9, playing 1 hand of 100 vs two hands of 70, so putting $140 in action vs $100 but while playing two hands i will only get half as many hands as playing with one.

also... what is/ or how do i determine the correlation between playing two hands at the same hand because since they are against the same dealers hand there must be some correlation, and once i have this info how can i use it to determine bet sizes of the multiple hands for set bankrolls?

Thankyou!

 

[SweetAxtion]

Yeah, I know CSM's are to be avoided; but, you play with what you have.

I do sometimes increase my bet and sometimes do well with it.

One day I'll check out the casinos in Washington state to see how they compare to up here. There's a bus that goes daily to one daily I think so I wouldn't have to worry about driving.

There are non CSM games in BC. There are automatic shufflers and 6 deck shoe games. It would take you longer to drive to US casinos than to drive the 30 minutes to the Boat or Burnaby. Haven't you been to any other casinos other than Langley?

As for playing multiple hands...Ken Uston explained it well in regards to different spreads. I don't have his book on me right now, but it basically says that if you are flat betting 100 dollars, spreading it over 2 or 3 hands is a safer play and allows you to bet slightly more than $100 over those 2 or 3 hands. If I find his book, I'll post what it says.

 

[cyclinggimpe]

There are non CSM games in BC. There are automatic shufflers and 6 deck shoe games. It would take you longer to drive to US casinos than to drive the 30 minutes to the Boat or Burnaby. Haven't you been to any other casinos other than Langley?

As for playing multiple hands...Ken Uston explained it well in regards to different spreads. I don't have his book on me right now, but it basically says that if you are flat betting 100 dollars, spreading it over 2 or 3 hands is a safer play and allows you to bet slightly more than $100 over those 2 or 3 hands. If I find his book, I'll post what it says.

Oh, okay. Someone told me that they were all CSM's? So, who do you believe? I plan to visit Riverrock sometime with some friends soon (probably in a couple of weeks). But, I commute a fair distance all week to work and the last thing I want to do is drive all that way again on the weekend when I need to relax. So, I play in my city since it doesn't take much time out of my day. There are other things to do besides gambling (like house cleaning, grocery shopping etc.).

I haven't played more than one hand since the time I won all that money. Whenever I've been back playing, the dealers were always doing too well. I would win some money in the end (maybe $50) but nothing too substantial. The table always would go up and down; too scarey for me to play 2 spots.

This past Monday I didn't fair so well at Blackjack so before all my money was gone I decided to try "3 Card Poker" and had some fun. I didn't do well either (I only had $50 left to play with) but it was fun. I might try that this weekend again for a change (with $100 start).

 

[Mikeaber]

Go to www.wizardofodds.com and look at the strategy for 3-card and Let-it-ride. The odds are not great, but using his strategy should improve your chance of minimal loss on these games.

Oh, okay. Someone told me that they were all CSM's? So, who do you believe? I plan to visit Riverrock sometime with some friends soon (probably in a couple of weeks). But, I commute a fair distance all week to work and the last thing I want to do is drive all that way again on the weekend when I need to relax. So, I play in my city since it doesn't take much time out of my day. There are other things to do besides gambling (like house cleaning, grocery shopping etc.).

I haven't played more than one hand since the time I won all that money. Whenever I've been back playing, the dealers were always doing too well. I would win some money in the end (maybe $50) but nothing too substantial. The table always would go up and down; too scarey for me to play 2 spots.

This past Monday I didn't fair so well at Blackjack so before all my money was gone I decided to try "3 Card Poker" and had some fun. I didn't do well either (I only had $50 left to play with) but it was fun. I might try that this weekend again for a change (with $100 start).

 

[cyclinggimpe]

Thanks for the link. I'll still try it for a bit. If I come out ahead at anytime, I'll quit and then go play BJ with the extra cash.

 

[SweetAxtion]

Oh, okay. Someone told me that they were all CSM's? So, who do you believe? I plan to visit Riverrock sometime with some friends soon (probably in a couple of weeks). But, I commute a fair distance all week to work and the last thing I want to do is drive all that way again on the weekend when I need to relax. So, I play in my city since it doesn't take much time out of my day. There are other things to do besides gambling (like house cleaning, grocery shopping etc.).

I haven't played more than one hand since the time I won all that money. Whenever I've been back playing, the dealers were always doing too well. I would win some money in the end (maybe $50) but nothing too substantial. The table always would go up and down; too scarey for me to play 2 spots.

This past Monday I didn't fair so well at Blackjack so before all my money was gone I decided to try "3 Card Poker" and had some fun. I didn't do well either (I only had $50 left to play with) but it was fun. I might try that this weekend again for a change (with $100 start).

The Royal Towers used to have 6 deck shoe games...No longer since they've closed. The Riverboat in New West still has 6 deck shoe. Both Langley and Gateway in Burnaby has automatic shufflers at their high limit tables. At least there you can eat and drink for free (except booze). Prince George has shoe games as does Kelowna. All Great Canadian Casinos are only CSM's including their high limit areas. People who play high limit CSM's are on crack IMO.

The Blue Boy is CSM's. The only one I'm not sure about locally is the one at the Plaza of Nations.

Here's the bad thing though...When the Riverboat's gaming license is moved to Queensborough, they too will have to use CSM's as mandated by the BC gaming commision. Unless a lobbying group protests this, all new Casino's from this point on will be CSM with their BJ games. The next best thing would be ASMs.

The only thing I can ever think of that would change this is if someone managed to turn it into a political media frenzy about the horrors of gambling and how CSM's ruin more lives because of the speed at which someone can lose ALL their money with no "break" inbetween shoes for that person to give their head a shake and come to their senses.

They could use the British example in Great Britain how the government is concerned about the welfare of their citizens and won't allow a game in which gambling addicts could ruin their lives that much faster.

Will this happen though? I doubt it since it profits the gov't to collect voluntary tax from its gamblers.

As for playing more than one spot...Utilize your surrenders when holding a stiff 15 and 16 versus a dealer Ace, 10, and 9. For if you are good with a 17-20 with one hand, and surrender the other...should you win the 17-20, and surrender the other, you are up for the hand. If you simply hit it and busted (or worse didn't hit it at all), you may only break even.

 

[Mikeaber]

<<The only thing I can ever think of that would change this is if someone managed to turn it into a political media frenzy about the horrors of gambling and how CSM's ruin more lives because of the speed at which someone can lose ALL their money with no "break" inbetween shoes for that person to give their head a shake and come to their senses. >>

Missouri gaming laws state that a person cannot buy more than $500 worth of chips in a 2 hour period. If you loose, you have to wait until the top of the next even numbered hour to rebuy. Something like that anyway. It's part of that "cool down" thing Sweetaxion made reference to. I'm sort of surprised to find that the Missouri casinos I've been to, do not have CSMs.

 

[cyclinggimpe]

The Royal Towers used to have 6 deck shoe games...No longer since they've closed. The Riverboat in New West still has 6 deck shoe. Both Langley and Gateway in Burnaby has automatic shufflers at their high limit tables. At least there you can eat and drink for free (except booze). Prince George has shoe games as does Kelowna. All Great Canadian Casinos are only CSM's including their high limit areas. People who play high limit CSM's are on crack IMO.

The Blue Boy is CSM's. The only one I'm not sure about locally is the one at the Plaza of Nations.

Here's the bad thing though...When the Riverboat's gaming license is moved to Queensborough, they too will have to use CSM's as mandated by the BC gaming commision. Unless a lobbying group protests this, all new Casino's from this point on will be CSM with their BJ games. The next best thing would be ASMs.

As for playing more than one spot...Utilize your surrenders when holding a stiff 15 and 16 versus a dealer Ace, 10, and 9. For if you are good with a 17-20 with one hand, and surrender the other...should you win the 17-20, and surrender the other, you are up for the hand. If you simply hit it and busted (or worse didn't hit it at all), you may only break even.

I take it you're from BC, SweetAxtion? So does this mean that the new big casino in Richmond is also CSM's? What about the one in Coquitlam (that's probably a Great Canadian Casino)? I was thinking of hitting that with a co-worker one night after work. Which lower mainland casino is the best for BJ? If you can use card counting at one I would then take up learning card counting again. Then I'd go there once a month to see if I can get ahead more than I am now.

As far as surrendering, I have never done that yet. So far I have taken my chances with my hand. I should probably start using that on the days that the dealer gets a lot of BJ's; even if I only play one hand.

Missouri's law doesn't sound very good for high rollers. It's fine for me since I only go in with $100-$200 at a time and don't go to the cash machine when I'm out.

 

[SweetAxtion]

I take it you're from BC, SweetAxtion? So does this mean that the new big casino in Richmond is also CSM's? What about the one in Coquitlam (that's probably a Great Canadian Casino)? I was thinking of hitting that with a co-worker one night after work. Which lower mainland casino is the best for BJ? If you can use card counting at one I would then take up learning card counting again. Then I'd go there once a month to see if I can get ahead more than I am now.

As far as surrendering, I have never done that yet. So far I have taken my chances with my hand. I should probably start using that on the days that the dealer gets a lot of BJ's; even if I only play one hand.

Missouri's law doesn't sound very good for high rollers. It's fine for me since I only go in with $100-$200 at a time and don't go to the cash machine when I'm out.

All Great Canadian Casinos utitlize CSM's. That includes Richmond and Coquitlam. Your best bet for BJ is therefore the Riverboat inNew West. All their BJ tables are 6 deck shoe games.

As for surrendering when you notice the dealer getting alot of BJ's....Consider that if alot of Aces and faces are being eaten up at the table...surrendering may not be a good thing as the count is decreasing. In other words...especially at a CSM game, trying to "predict" or going on hunches as to whether you should surrender or not is not a good idea. I suggest surrender because you limit your losses on a hand that will bust 41-43% of the time. If there was no surrender opportunity, you would and should always hit your 15's and 16's unless of course you are able to count and are basing your reasoning behind this.

 

[cyclinggimpe]

All Great Canadian Casinos utitlize CSM's. That includes Richmond and Coquitlam. Your best bet for BJ is therefore the Riverboat inNew West. All their BJ tables are 6 deck shoe games.

As for surrendering when you notice the dealer getting alot of BJ's....Consider that if alot of Aces and faces are being eaten up at the table...surrendering may not be a good thing as the count is decreasing. In other words...especially at a CSM game, trying to "predict" or going on hunches as to whether you should surrender or not is not a good idea. I suggest surrender because you limit your losses on a hand that will bust 41-43% of the time. If there was no surrender opportunity, you would and should always hit your 15's and 16's unless of course you are able to count and are basing your reasoning behind this.

Only one casino in the lower mainland that's good for BJ? That sucks! I'll try it out one day. Thanks for the info.