Ratholing
- Thread starter rdorange
- Start date
Chips and level of play
At craps I am a red chip player. My right bets average $40. My don't bets average $90.
At Bj I am a green chip player. I will play less if I can find it, but that is not often. With my (small) spread, I average $25 to $100. The only thing for me that is worth ratholing is green. If I get black chips in my rack from winning, I will put those in my pocket and not hide the fact that I am doing it. Sometimes you just want to put away a win and save it. Sort of a loss limit!
At craps I am a red chip player. My right bets average $40. My don't bets average $90.
At Bj I am a green chip player. I will play less if I can find it, but that is not often. With my (small) spread, I average $25 to $100. The only thing for me that is worth ratholing is green. If I get black chips in my rack from winning, I will put those in my pocket and not hide the fact that I am doing it. Sometimes you just want to put away a win and save it. Sort of a loss limit!
The problem with several smaller buy-ins compared to one bigger buy-in is that the pit will frequently miss one or more of your buy-ins. This makes your winning sessions appear to be bigger wins, and your losing sessions appear to be smaller losses. If you netted a small loss during your session, they could have you logged for a small win. The few times I've caught a glimpse of my rating card, if there's an error, they always show my buy-in as being less than reality. If I have a bad losing session, I might occasionally ask the pit "How far am I stuck", or "How much did I buy in for", and I'm often given a number which is less than my actual buy-in. It's possible they're giving me bad info intentionally (to see how I'll react, or to soften the blow of a big loss), but in most cases, I believe that they're giving me the numbers they've actually written down.
There are also issues with doing bigger buy-ins less often. If you were to buy-in for $500, and then only bet $5-10 on your first few hands, that would look out of place. It would also annoy the pit if it requires them to have to do a fill while you're at the table, and possibly a credit after you color up all your chips and leave. The trick is finding the right balance for your buy-ins so they're not too big for your opening bets, but not so frequent that they forget to log some of them.
There are also issues with doing bigger buy-ins less often. If you were to buy-in for $500, and then only bet $5-10 on your first few hands, that would look out of place. It would also annoy the pit if it requires them to have to do a fill while you're at the table, and possibly a credit after you color up all your chips and leave. The trick is finding the right balance for your buy-ins so they're not too big for your opening bets, but not so frequent that they forget to log some of them.
glovesetc said:
unless your friend wants to be involved in money laundering , conspiracy to evade income taxes , and aiding and abetting to defraud the taxman , and probably a few more laws that are on the books that you might want to break . 
:grin: :cool2:
:grin: :cool2:
Remember the MGM
Often when backed off of a blackjack game, I just take my chips and leave. Real good cameras at the cage, so I either come back on a different shift to cash them or have a friend do so.
If you are talking in the hundreds of dollars and not over $3,000 (the new number being used by many casinos for ID), at most casinos no one checks or cares where you got the chips.
Large chips are another story. I titled my reply, remember the MGM because the MGM has several times refused to cash and confiscated $5,000 chips from people who the casino claims could not verify that they had played there. In several cases the patron had just left a table, the casino knew he had played, but they were punishing him because he played unrated at high stakes. In a very recent case, one gambler paid another gambler a debt with a $5,000 MGM chip, so he had in fact, not played. In each instance, the Gaming Board has made MGM pay the player but accessed no penalty on the MGM. The MGM actually did have some kind of a case in the last instance because chips are not a legal cash equivilant and as casino tokens of value, can not be used to pay debts to banks, friends etc.
The point is, having someone else cash your large chips can bring tax questions, money laundering questions and casino harrassment.
Recently, on the first day of a 4 day Vegas stay, I cashed out over $6,000 at one of MGM's tables. When doing so, I told the dealer that I would be playing some more soon, so give me yellow ($1,000 chips). This way I could cash out a couple on my way out that day, buy in with them the next shift I played, and cash out some more on the way out.
ihate17
Often when backed off of a blackjack game, I just take my chips and leave. Real good cameras at the cage, so I either come back on a different shift to cash them or have a friend do so.
If you are talking in the hundreds of dollars and not over $3,000 (the new number being used by many casinos for ID), at most casinos no one checks or cares where you got the chips.
Large chips are another story. I titled my reply, remember the MGM because the MGM has several times refused to cash and confiscated $5,000 chips from people who the casino claims could not verify that they had played there. In several cases the patron had just left a table, the casino knew he had played, but they were punishing him because he played unrated at high stakes. In a very recent case, one gambler paid another gambler a debt with a $5,000 MGM chip, so he had in fact, not played. In each instance, the Gaming Board has made MGM pay the player but accessed no penalty on the MGM. The MGM actually did have some kind of a case in the last instance because chips are not a legal cash equivilant and as casino tokens of value, can not be used to pay debts to banks, friends etc.
The point is, having someone else cash your large chips can bring tax questions, money laundering questions and casino harrassment.
Recently, on the first day of a 4 day Vegas stay, I cashed out over $6,000 at one of MGM's tables. When doing so, I told the dealer that I would be playing some more soon, so give me yellow ($1,000 chips). This way I could cash out a couple on my way out that day, buy in with them the next shift I played, and cash out some more on the way out.
ihate17
i agree 1000%, and have been saying things like this for a while.. i dont make myself paranoid at all (except when i use my little measuring stick to brace up against the discard rack to see how many decks are left), and i believe that casinos arent as insane as most people on here think (eye in the sky will catch a $5 mistake and call down to the pit, they assume your counting just because you pocket a black, etc).. i think that they are either paranoid or purposely acting super covert cuz its "cool".. seriously, id say 98% of the time you think the casino is watching you or you think they would care about what you are doing, they arent and dont.. of course my opinion changes if you are betting a lot
ive never heard of this.. do they use generic chips in some places or something? the casinos by me all have different chips
this is why i dont think im going to color up anymore (at least not for the full amount), unless i have lost money, because color-ups are rated, but the cage in anonymous (unless your cashing thousands)
my goal is to get the most comps possible, so does anybody have any advice for how many times and how much my buy ins should be for? i bet $10 for 3-4 hours usually, and i buy in for $200 or $300.. im thinking buy in for $100 every hour, and ask them what they have me down for to make sure they are getting it.. of course i would put some greens in my pocket, as the dealer and players would get slightly angry if im buying in when i have chips in front of me
ive never heard of this.. do they use generic chips in some places or something? the casinos by me all have different chips
this is why i dont think im going to color up anymore (at least not for the full amount), unless i have lost money, because color-ups are rated, but the cage in anonymous (unless your cashing thousands)
my goal is to get the most comps possible, so does anybody have any advice for how many times and how much my buy ins should be for? i bet $10 for 3-4 hours usually, and i buy in for $200 or $300.. im thinking buy in for $100 every hour, and ask them what they have me down for to make sure they are getting it.. of course i would put some greens in my pocket, as the dealer and players would get slightly angry if im buying in when i have chips in front of me
deception
The concept:
There are many casinos that really do not give you much heat on your bets if you do not bet too much according to whatever tolerance level they have (all casinos are different)
There are also casinos or shift that can not really ID an experienced counter.
But these casinos at times do backoff or ban players based upon the players lifetime win.
So you rathole! You take chips from the table and put them in your pocket when no one is watching. You do not overdue it and you also do it when you are losing.
An example:
Your records indicate that you are making $50 per hour playing in your local casino. But if you can put in your pocket 4 green chips per hour, the casinos record will show that you lose $50 per hour and you become a welcomed player.
Most casinos have their pits track the black and purple chips. There are times where the pit is very busy and they lose track, but most casinos who see black action, do not track green, so ratholing green is perfered.
ihate17
The concept:
There are many casinos that really do not give you much heat on your bets if you do not bet too much according to whatever tolerance level they have (all casinos are different)
There are also casinos or shift that can not really ID an experienced counter.
But these casinos at times do backoff or ban players based upon the players lifetime win.
So you rathole! You take chips from the table and put them in your pocket when no one is watching. You do not overdue it and you also do it when you are losing.
An example:
Your records indicate that you are making $50 per hour playing in your local casino. But if you can put in your pocket 4 green chips per hour, the casinos record will show that you lose $50 per hour and you become a welcomed player.
Most casinos have their pits track the black and purple chips. There are times where the pit is very busy and they lose track, but most casinos who see black action, do not track green, so ratholing green is perfered.
ihate17
Every casino is different, learn to know your opponent
Almost every casino tracks $25 players and many track all players.
If you use a players card for comps on table games, they will track things like your average bet, time played and approx win/loss. It is the win/loss that can kill a game for a $10-$25 player in many casinos because they are not evaluating these players often or much at all while they are playing. If you were a high roller, then you could expect evaluation and they might back you off even before they have extensive win/loss info.
So where a black chip player might rathole in a casino where he thinks he can beat their evaluation system and just needs to adjust his win/loss by pocketing some chips (otherwise he is playing short sessions and hitting the door before he gets the tap, the red and green chip player may always need to rathole to eliminate the chance that the casino will back him off because he is a long term lifetime winner.
So yes, if you play at an advantage, at your bet level you do need to rathole.
ihate17
Almost every casino tracks $25 players and many track all players.
If you use a players card for comps on table games, they will track things like your average bet, time played and approx win/loss. It is the win/loss that can kill a game for a $10-$25 player in many casinos because they are not evaluating these players often or much at all while they are playing. If you were a high roller, then you could expect evaluation and they might back you off even before they have extensive win/loss info.
So where a black chip player might rathole in a casino where he thinks he can beat their evaluation system and just needs to adjust his win/loss by pocketing some chips (otherwise he is playing short sessions and hitting the door before he gets the tap, the red and green chip player may always need to rathole to eliminate the chance that the casino will back him off because he is a long term lifetime winner.
So yes, if you play at an advantage, at your bet level you do need to rathole.
ihate17
I got one reality check on this many months ago at a local joint. The computer screen was turned around, so I actually saw my own quick profile up on the screen. And even though I had been ratholing at this place (and had been there several times), it still had me down for a lifetime win, which was annoying.
I think if you do rathole, it is best if you don't do it in front of the cameras. Now I know that no one is constantly looking at me--most probably, no one is ever looking at me. But if they ever do want to take a look at me, all they have to do is review their tapes on days that I'm there. Therefore, when I rathole, I take a bathroom break, with chips. So far as I know, the law does not allow the casino to spy on me in the restroom, not alone my private closed stall. It's there that I rathole chips and count/reorganize my BR. Also, I have begun to use the poker room cashier to cash in my chips, not the cashiers near the bj tables. In the poker room, mixed denominations of chips are common, whereas on the floor, chips are generally converted to high denominations only, so that 12 green chips or 5 black chips is an oddity and a tip off to ratholing, since the table should have exchanged it for three $100 chips or one $500 chip respectively when you left.
That was one of my..
points in a previous thread, and part of this one. While I played at one of the local casinos in Biloxi, I had ratholed several green and black. When I cashed out at the cashiers window, with more than 5 black, They ID me and called the pit for confirmation. It was the only time this has ever happened to me. I assume it was because I did not have a purple $500, and didn't have black for several extra greens I had.
points in a previous thread, and part of this one. While I played at one of the local casinos in Biloxi, I had ratholed several green and black. When I cashed out at the cashiers window, with more than 5 black, They ID me and called the pit for confirmation. It was the only time this has ever happened to me. I assume it was because I did not have a purple $500, and didn't have black for several extra greens I had.
why even bother
way too much aggrevation to go through all that if you ask me . I just got home fom the casino - my first trip since the surgery - and whenwe were done the pit boss looked at me and said Mr ********** did you cash ib the 22 purpkles ? I said yes so there is no need to cash them . I sent my lady friend to cash them in for me . He converted my blocks into pumpkins and said hope we see you soon and feel better . It is lie they do not know . I think the people are overly paranoid in the forum and also I think they give way too little credit to the pitbosses as well . Just my opinion . :grin: :cool2:
way too much aggrevation to go through all that if you ask me . I just got home fom the casino - my first trip since the surgery - and whenwe were done the pit boss looked at me and said Mr ********** did you cash ib the 22 purpkles ? I said yes so there is no need to cash them . I sent my lady friend to cash them in for me . He converted my blocks into pumpkins and said hope we see you soon and feel better . It is lie they do not know . I think the people are overly paranoid in the forum and also I think they give way too little credit to the pitbosses as well . Just my opinion .
:grin: :cool2: