Renzey's Ace-10 Front Count... It's working!

[SkyofHorus]

Let me start off by saying I am new to card counting techniques, and Renzey's "Blackjack Bluebook ll" is the first blackjack book I have read. After reading the Ace-10 front count section, I decided that would be the technique i would first implement. I was playing $5 minimum, walking away with a count above 43, increasing to $15 on a count of 37 or 40. With a count of 35 or lower, I had a $20 bet, and with a count lower then 30, i had planned on a $25 or $30 dollar bet, but never reached a count that low. In the first week, I diligently front counted each shoe, and the results were great! in 4 or 5 trips to the local casino, I was up $555, with a big win on a 34 count of $255 in only ONE round! I have never done anything like this in Blackjack, and I plan on keeping to BS with advanced plays and front counting the Ace's and 10's for quite awhile! I do plan on advancing up to the KISS count level l (also in the book) after my wins even out a bit. Has anyone ever used this simple count successfully? It's working, and I feel like many beginners could benefit from it as a 'starter count' before moving on to more complex counting!

 

[Dopple]

Congratulations on your great win but you must understand that in order for this method to prove itself it must perform over a long period time. I am sure you aware of the term variance. Good luck and I hope it works for you.

 

[SkyofHorus]

I am concerned it won't hold up for too much longer. I'm due for at least a moderate loss soon, but so far I haven't left the casino down. A completely positive start is exciting and I can only hope it holds up over the course of a month or two for starters!

 

[KewlJ]

I am concerned it won't hold up for too much longer. I'm due for at least a moderate loss soon, but so far I haven't left the casino down. A completely positive start is exciting and I can only hope it holds up over the course of a month or two for starters!

Congratulations on your good start. Don't put too much into that. It is just variance, which you will learn is what this game is about. BUT, better to experience some good or positive variance than bad or negative variance...especially as you start out (likely underfunded).

Now the reason, I even bothered to post is that I want to try to correct you and your thinking right here at the beginning about "being due". There is no such thing. You aren't "due" to win or lose depending on your previous results. The cards don't know if you have previously won or lost. It is what we call voodoo thinking. But we have all had some of those voodoo thoughts creep in from time to time, especially in the beginning, until we learn (experince).

So let me share a little story from early in my blackjack career, about 12 years ago. It was my 3rd year of blackjack play. I started at the bottom with a very small bankroll, that really wasn't even enough, but that's another story. So in this 3rd year, I had finally graduated from the smallest stakes I could possibly play at my local casinos (Atlantic City). The table minimum's were $5, during slow periods and I was finally able to play $10 spreading to $60.

So the first month or maybe 6 weeks of the year, playing this higher stakes and spread, I get out of the gate very quickly, winning way above expectation for my level of play. I was running like 4-5 times above expectation. Just like you, I was sure a losing period or "correction" as I was calling it, was due to occur. So I cut my betting level and bet spread in half, reverting back to $5-$30 spread, thinking that I would only lose half as much during this losing period that was due. Very clever of me hun?

Well the losing period or "correction" never occurred. I just kept on winning. The winning rate slowed from that fast start, but I kept winning. So what happened is that by the end of the year if I had not adjusted my bets and bet spread, I would have been very, very close to expectation. BUT, because I HAD cut my bets and bet spread in half, I only won half as much over those last 10 and a half months or so. I cost myself significant money, which for a young player trying to grow his bankroll, was basically a wasted year.

I guess the moral of the story is trust the math.

 

[SkyofHorus]

Congratulations on your good start. Don't put too much into that. It is just variance, which you will learn is what this game is about. BUT, better to experience some good or positive variance than bad or negative variance...especially as you start out (likely underfunded).

Now the reason, I even bothered to post is that I want to try to correct you and your thinking right here at the beginning about "being due". There is no such thing. You aren't "due" to win or lose depending on your previous results. The cards don't know if you have previously won or lost. It is what we call voodoo thinking. But we have all had some of those voodoo thoughts creep in from time to time, especially in the beginning, until we learn (experince).

So let me share a little story from early in my blackjack career, about 12 years ago. It was my 3rd year of blackjack play. I started at the bottom with a very small bankroll, that really wasn't even enough, but that's another story. So in this 3rd year, I had finally graduated from the smallest stakes I could possibly play at my local casinos (Atlantic City). The table minimum's were $5, during slow periods and I was finally able to play $10 spreading to $60.

So the first month or maybe 6 weeks of the year, playing this higher stakes and spread, I get out of the gate very quickly, winning way above expectation for my level of play. I was running like 4-5 times above expectation. Just like you, I was sure a losing period or "correction" as I was calling it, was due to occur. So I cut my betting level and bet spread in half, reverting back to $5-$30 spread, thinking that I would only lose half as much during this losing period that was due. Very clever of me hun?

Well the losing period or "correction" never occurred. I just kept on winning. The winning rate slowed from that fast start, but I kept winning. So what happened is that by the end of the year if I had not adjusted my bets and bet spread, I would have been very, very close to expectation. BUT, because I HAD cut my bets and bet spread in half, I only won half as much over those last 10 and a half months or so. I cost myself significant money, which for a young player trying to grow his bankroll, was basically a wasted year.

I guess the moral of the story is trust the math.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I will try and learn from that story and just go for it when my bankroll allows. May I ask what your counting strategy preference is? After that much winning, did you ever get heat for counting? I am in Minnesota, and there is one close by casino and 3 others within an hour or so i could go to, but I don't want to get backed off or especially kicked out of my nearby casino...

 

[KewlJ]

I totally understand where you are coming from. I will try and learn from that story and just go for it when my bankroll allows. May I ask what your counting strategy preference is? After that much winning, did you ever get heat for counting? I am in Minnesota, and there is one close by casino and 3 others within an hour or so i could go to, but I don't want to get backed off or especially kicked out of my nearby casino...

I play hi-lo. But I really don't want to get into recommending any specific count. There is a history of that leading to heated debates. My position is every player should find what works for him or her. The important thing is to learn the count you choose inside and out and practice, practice, practice, because with ANY count, card counters are playing to a very small edge. Mistakes cut in to and can wipe out that small edge.

Now that said, I was not very familiar with Renzey's Ace-Ten front count so I looked it up.

So the object is to identify when there are a higher than "normal" ratio of 10's and aces to other cards, particularly low cards in the remaining cards to be played. It looks like Renzey's Ace-ten will do that to some degree, but there are better options.

Heading into count debate territory, , I recommend a level one count, in which you count Tens and aces vs a group of low cards, looking for a higher than normal ratio. Any number of level 1 counts, like hi-lo, K-O, KISS ect will accomplish this to close to the same degree.

As for my history of heats and backoffs, yes, eventually I got to the point that I could no longer play Atlantic City. It took about 5 and a half years and really wasn't until I moved to higher stakes, spreading $25-$300ish. Playing red chip level, spreading $5 or $10 to almost anything below $100, shouldn't be a problem for most locations, although there are some ridiculously sweaty casinos.

 

[SkyofHorus]

Banned from Atlantic City? Wow, that's impressive and must also be frustrating for such a successful player. I don't plan on getting too high stakes with things, and there's a very, very limited 'high roller' area in my home area casino (like 4 or 5 tables) with the floor person within a few feet, so anything above $100 on a spread in there would be IMMEDIATELY pegged for counting.

As to the counts, Kiss l and also KO were going to be my next research counts, so the recommendation helps push me in that direction. Surely adding counting a group of lows to go along with the highs wouldn't be much to add to what I'm doing now and would increase the overall odds. I have a feeling Renzey himself (i saw him posting in this forum, actually!) would recommend progressing through the Kiss levels in his book rather then just playing the most basic count.

 

[KewlJ]

Banned from Atlantic City....

….I have a feeling Renzey himself (i saw him posting in this forum, actually!) would recommend progressing through the Kiss levels in his book rather then just playing the most basic count.

"Banned" isn't the right word for Atlantic City, Technically they can't ban a player for card counting, like other jurisdictions can. But just the same they do have countermeasures that they can and will employ that effectively accomplishes the same thing.

It would be nice to have Fred Renzey join the discussion. I don't want to speak for Mr. Renzey, but if I had to guess, the Renzey Ace-Ten front count was likely a stepping stone to something like his KISS count. Or maybe something along the lines of a very simple count that occasional recreational players that play very infrequently might use.

 

[SkyofHorus]

"Banned" isn't the right word for Atlantic City, Technically they can't ban a player for card counting, like other jurisdictions can. But just the same they do have countermeasures that they can and will employ that effectively accomplishes the same thing.

It would be nice to have Fred Renzey join the discussion. I don't want to speak for Mr. Renzey, but if I had to guess, the Renzey Ace-Ten front count was likely a stepping stone to something like his KISS count. Or maybe something along the lines of a very simple count that occasional recreational players that play very infrequently might use.

You're right about that. He mentioned on the first page of the KISS count section (which i finally read last night) that he included the Ace-Ten front right after the basic strategy section in his book separate from the counting section as something for those strictly basic strategy players to learn to give them that slightly better edge. Since I had been only a basic strategy until just recently, it stood out to me as something I could use without tons of practice. That being said, I like the stage one KISS count very much. Not having to calculate a true count and being able to track only half the cards seems like a perfect next step for me. I need to practice before my spring break 'gambling week' I plan on having coming up soon! Haha

 

[JohnCrover]

Let me start off by saying I am new to card counting techniques, and Renzey's "Blackjack Bluebook ll" is the first blackjack book I have read. After reading the Ace-10 front count section, I decided that would be the technique i would first implement. I was playing $5 minimum, walking away with a count above 43, increasing to $15 on a count of 37 or 40. With a count of 35 or lower, I had a $20 bet, and with a count lower then 30, i had planned on a $25 or $30 dollar bet, but never reached a count that low. In the first week, I diligently front counted each shoe, and the results were great! in 4 or 5 trips to the local casino, I was up $555, with a big win on a 34 count of $255 in only ONE round! I have never done anything like this in Blackjack, and I plan on keeping to BS with advanced plays and front counting the Ace's and 10's for quite awhile! I do plan on advancing up to the KISS count level l (also in the book) after my wins even out a bit. Has anyone ever used this simple count successfully? It's working, and I feel like many beginners could benefit from it as a 'starter count' before moving on to more complex counting!

You spread from $5-$30, am I understanding this correctly? A spread that small isn't going to do very well in a shoe game (which I suspect you're playing if the minimum bet is $5). There's a card counter named "Ryemo" who spread too small during his first year of counting when he started out. By the end of the first year, he had lost $50!
"Learn from the mistakes of others because you cannot possibly learn them all yourself." -Sam Levenston
I also heard you mention that you only have about 3 shops you can play: that's going to be a problem. I remember conversing with a colleague of mine, I was boasting about how long I was lasting at a particular casino. Response: "The hammer will fall eventually." To my dismay, the hammer fell the next day.
I wish I could give you good advice on how to last longer but considering you're a novice player there's not much you can do. You're going to make the silly mistakes that every beginner makes, it's just part of the learning process.
Just try to not over-stay your welcome.
Good luck out there

 

[SkyofHorus]

You spread from $5-$30, am I understanding this correctly? A spread that small isn't going to do very well in a shoe game (which I suspect you're playing if the minimum bet is $5). There's a card counter named "Ryemo" who spread too small during his first year of counting when he started out. By the end of the first year, he had lost $50!
"Learn from the mistakes of others because you cannot possibly learn them all yourself." -Sam Levenston
I also heard you mention that you only have about 3 shops you can play: that's going to be a problem. I remember conversing with a colleague of mine, I was boasting about how long I was lasting at a particular casino. Response: "The hammer will fall eventually." To my dismay, the hammer fell the next day.
I wish I could give you good advice on how to last longer but considering you're a novice player there's not much you can do. You're going to make the silly mistakes that every beginner makes, it's just part of the learning process.
Just try to not over-stay your welcome.
Good luck out there

Renzey's 'Blackjack Bluebook ll" where I learned about the Ace-10 front count, says to increase your betting intervals only to 4x and 6x (with that particular count) I am concerned about the limited casino's, which is why I may stick to small spread, play short sessions and get out before I get heat. With the KISS l count, he recommends a max bet of 10x your minimum, which would only be $50 bets at the $5 table. Playing with red chips mostly, I hope I don't attract attention from the floor. I've read they monitor cashing out black $100 more closely, so I had planned on stacking up $25's and doing whatever I can to limit my exposure.

I am on spring break next week and plan on practicing the KISS counting with a deck of cards at home. I'll probably post an update post once I've tried it out!

 

[Midwest Player]

Thanks! And yes, in Minnesota there are only a handful of casino's, one state run (which I go to) and 3 on Indian reservation land.

There are a hell of a lot more casinos than 4 in MN. Which one is state run? I counted 17 in CBJN.

 

[SkyofHorus]

There are more then 4, but i meant only 4 (maybe 5 or 6) within an hour drive.

 

[Midwest Player]

There are more then 4, but i meant only 4 (maybe 5 or 6) within an hour drive. Running Aces is where I go, a state run racetrack/card room, with only table games (blackjack, poker, 3 card poker..etc) no slots.

Tell us more about Running Aces. Do they offer double deck games? What is the heat like? I assume you live near the twin cities. Don't ignore the two casinos in western WI. Check out Turtle Lake and Danbury WI

 

[KewlJ]

Tell us more about Running Aces. Do they offer double deck games? What is the heat like? I assume you live near the twin cities. Don't ignore the two casinos in western WI. Check out Turtle Lake and Danbury WI

Ummm...No. Let him tell you in private. With only a very few casinos available, almost anything discussed, even very generally can only have negative consequences for him. Longevity is going to be a challenge under the best of circumstances for him. No need to make it a steeper challenge than it need be.

 

[SkyofHorus]

Ummm...No. Let him tell you in private. With only a very few casinos available, almost anything discussed, even very generally can only have negative consequences for him. Longevity is going to be a challenge under the best of circumstances for him. No need to make it a steeper challenge than it need be.

Do you think we should delete a few posts mentioning Running Aces by name, so it doesnt come up in any google searches?

 

[Midwest Player]

Do you think we should delete a few posts mentioning Running Aces by name, so it doesnt come up in any google searches?

No revealing information was disclosed about Running Aces. It is listed in CBJN. There is no need to delete anything. If you are located near the twin cities you have quite a few casinos available to you. I suggest don't camp out at just one all the time.

Thanks for your private message.

 

[SkyofHorus]

I am close to the twin cities, yes. Maybe there are more then I realized.

And ok. This is my first post ever I don't want to be saying things I shouldn't. Lol. I won another $125 in about 2 hours tonight. Didn't dip below the 70$ in red i had or my reserve greens, so almost 'doubled my money.' Ace-10 isn't as strong as others, but it has been very effective thus far!

 

[KewlJ]

I don't think you have done too much damage yet, but just want to remind you that casino personnel read these forums as well. Take it from a guy with a history of posting too much information. No good can come from it.

 

[SkyofHorus]

I don't think you have done too much damage yet, but just want to remind you that casino personnel read these forums as well. Take it from a guy with a history of posting too much information. No good can come from it.

Good point. I'm not betting or winning nearly enough to worry about heat yet, but I'll keep it in mind for future posts!