Should Dealers Toke Counters?

[Sentry]

In my occupation as a counter I have performed a service and helped an economy thrive. Some of my duties have included:

Job security: Keeping an empty table open that would have been shut down. Many times, the dealers would have been sent home early had i not been playing.

Shill: Resurrecting a dead table after a "hot" dealer has knocked over the patrons like so many bowling pins. I act as a shill, and before long the table fills in again.

Bodyguard: I make sure that my dealer is as comfortable as possible, free from smoke, insults and harassment.

Therapist: I provide a friendly face and a bartender's ear. When a dealer wants too talk about their wretched kids or crappy boss or husband, I am a sympathetic ear, preserving their sanity by giving them the therapeutic release of talking out their problems.

Advertising: In my conversations with my fellow players, I often discuss the merits of the restaurants, and the allure of the Craps table and slot machines.

Diplomat: I have helped smooth over disputes with unhappy customers that would have resulted in lost gaming time and a possible write-up for my dealer.

Goodwill Ambassador: By being a good neighbor, I have encouraged other players to stay and tip longer.

I have made the dealer's job easier, given the supervisor a happier, more efficient employee, and for the stockholders of the casino- I have given them a more active table to generate profits. Bar me? They should be giving me a salary and stock options!

Sentry

 

[The Mayor]

Check out "The Best" post archive...

(Dead link: http://www.cardcounter.com/best.pl)

Great post!

--Mayor

 

[Learning tocount]

Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!

 

[revereman]

Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!

I don't think it's post of the year or even belongs in the best post archives. It's sort of cute satire but that's about it. Casinos are a business designed to make money and they owe counters nothing. I think it's very unfair that they can ban counters or use other countermeasures (pun intended) just for using their brains. However, since they are in the business of making money, they choose not to serve customers who they **think** have an advantage over the house. How long would Walmart be in business if they allowed people to buy things at 20% off and then return them at full price? His arguments, while cute, really don't hold any water.

 

[Abraham de Moivre]

Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!

The post does point out things that counters do that help the casino.
Ploppies do not like to play at or open up empty tables. Since counters seek out empty tables, they are creating a more 'friendly' environment for the ploppies. Counters usually are more polite to casino staff, and do try to smooth over conflicts with assh*le ploppies in order to keep the game moving.

Will WalMart kick me out because I only buy items on sale?

"I'm sorry Sir, but your shopping is just too strong for us. You are welcome to buy some of the higher marked up items, but you can't buy any more of the sale items, we reserve those for our over-extended credit shopaholic customers. Oh, and by the way, we are putting your picture in the book, so don't try and go to K-Mart and pick up their blue light special items, either."

 

[Brillo]

Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!

That is a great post. And when you think about it, it matters not whether counters tip. There arn't enough of them to have any effect on dealer compensation whatsoever. My only point was that it might be for the counter for him/her to tip in certain situations.

 

[learning to count]

Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!

Now your are speaking with clarity and logic. I will agree that there may be times when a stratigically placed tip may help. So we have common ground. With this type of debate the world could be a better place.

 

[Sonny]

Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!

> How long would Walmart be in business if they allowed people to buy things at
> 20% off and then return them at full price?

Card counters are not returning merchandise for a full refund, we are simply shopping around for the best deal in town. If Walmart doesn't want people buying things for 20% off then they have the option of marking the prices up. Casinos also have the ability to offer an unbeatable blackjack game, but they don't.

Still, I think this is a little off topic. I think the intent of the original post was to show that card counters also provide a "service" but don't expect to be tipped, while dealers do.

-Sonny-

 

[Rob McGarvey]

I Agree

it is sarcastically funny, but not POM. If it is POM, it doesn't say much for the more important posts that I have seen here.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: Post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got my vote!!!!

easy to get cuaght up in a word fight and forget what the hell you are fighting for. Brill is right, there are not enough of us to put a dent in his untaxed income. ;>

 

[The Mayor]

Why...

This post makes many VERY important points.

First, advantage players have rights, and those rights are equal to any other person in the casino, whether dealer, or player, or management.

Second, advantage players are good for the game.

Third, advantage players should get reasonable compensation for their positive effect on the game.

In EVERY sport, it is the superstars that bring in the fans. That's even true in gambling, witness the superstars of poker that have made "World Poker Tour" a hit. It should also be true of other casino games. We are good for the game, and we need to be recognized as such.

All these points, and more, were both implicit and explicit in Sentry's post. It was not idle sarcasm, it was brilliance.

--Mayor

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Re: I don't think we're good for the game

The reason is that we provide examples of good play and the casino can't afford that. If every ploppy just learned basic strategy it would kill the game.

 

[revereman]

Re: Why...

I totally (and respectfully) disagree with your post and am more inclined to agree with Automatic Monkey (sorry to lump you in with me AM).

Advantage players certainly have some rights (basic courtesy, no injuries, etc) but from the casino's perspective, and the ways the laws are written, casinos can refuse service to people they feel have an advantage over the house. I think its unfair they can do this but life is often unfair, as I'm sure your parents have taught you.

To think that APs are good for business is just delusional. Ploppies to do not play BJ because they see some players (presumably APs) winning. They are either there to have a good time (to most APs losing money is not a good time but that is what separates us from ploppies), the excitement, the chance to be a bigshot (as opposed to their normally mundane lives), the chance to win big (its all luck anyway, in their minds), and a wide variety of psychological and financial reasons). They are not there, I repeat, because they see other people winning.

Advantage players do not deserve "compensation" for their efforts. APs are still gamblers. They just are gamblers with a slight advantage over the house in the "long run." Even the "best" APs have had long runs (even a year or more) when they are net losers. The game, especially as constructed today, is very hard to beat. APs don't deserve anything.

I still maintain that the original post is not brilliant, but has some value as a cute, satirical post.

Having written all that, thank you, Mayor for having a well-run site where we can (hopefully intelligently) debate these and other issues.

 

[The Mayor]

Re: Why...

Without the lure that blackjack is beatable, the game would not be nearly as interesting to ploppies. They only know the game is beatable because we exist. Blackjack is the most popular table game because of us. Counters are as necessary to the success of blackjack as any pro to any popular sport.

Ploppy's don't care how we play and don't try and copy us. The just know there are people who beat the game and that's all that matters.

Therefore we serve the casino's interests.

--Mayor

 

[revereman]

Re: Why...

And if BJ didn't exist in casinos, the slot machines would be even busier than they already are. Ditto for the other games.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

An Iraqi Sniper

is a hero to his people, but a pain in the American's putooty. We are hero's in our own eyes, and can fill a small room with our fans (been to the latest green chip party?), while we are a pain in the casinos ass, and the hero's they use to draw in the fans are guys like Ziggy and Roy. We don't owe the dealer anything, and the casino doesn't owe us anything either. Since we are sportsmen like players, we normally will tip, even tho on the small side perhaps, but we can get comped for putting in the action. If you really are a good bj player you will get away with making money on top of this. Since the casino may not be sportsman like and toss you for winning, your gov't says they have that right. Live with it and stop crying, or DO something about it. You've got a better chance at lowering the price of gas.

The guy plucked the A string and you hear a chorus of other sounds that make you happy. That's great, but it is not POM in any respectable way. It's like giving a reward to a librarian for farting out loud. Don't turn this board into a farting contest. I know we haven't had any amazing posts in a long time, but this is not the way to go about it. Compare it to the other POM's. How does that compare to an Alienated post? Like giving Richard Simons an honourary membership to the Marines. YOU GO GIRL!

It is a funny post, and that's it.

 

[learning to count]

Re: Why...

""I totally (and respectfully) disagree with your post and am more inclined to agree with Automatic Monkey (sorry to lump you in with me AM).

Advantage players certainly have some rights (basic courtesy, no injuries, etc) but from the casino's perspective, and the ways the laws are written, casinos can refuse service to people they feel have an advantage over the house. I think its unfair they can do this but life is often unfair, as I'm sure your parents have taught you.

To think that APs are good for business is just delusional. Ploppies to do not play BJ because they see some players (presumably APs) winning. They are either there to have a good time (to most APs losing money is not a good time but that is what separates us from ploppies), the excitement, the chance to be a bigshot (as opposed to their normally mundane lives), the chance to win big (its all luck anyway, in their minds), and a wide variety of psychological and financial reasons). They are not there, I repeat, because they see other people winning.""

They are there because of need! They hope down deep to become rich. Second they want to be a star. Vegas supplies this. Vegas feeds the need and serves up attention like a pizza to starving ethiopians. When they see us win they think they can do it too. We feed the addiction for us and them. Our addiction is for the same things they crave we just get more of it even if the edge is between 1-3.4 percent.

""Advantage players do not deserve "compensation" for their efforts. APs are still gamblers. They just are gamblers with a slight advantage over the house in the "long run." Even the "best" APs have had long runs (even a year or more) when they are net losers. The game, especially as constructed today, is very hard to beat. APs don't deserve anything.""

Your right we should not get paid by the casinos we take enough of their stolen profits. We should be left alone to play without harrasment. We have a right to play just like the suckers.

"I still maintain that the original post is not brilliant, but has some value as a cute, satirical post."

Thats your oppinion but it was an excellent point that needed to be brought out. By the way your statement;

"casinos can refuse service to

people they feel have an

advantage over the house."

...is wrong. By law any legal Nevada business can refuse any customer. They do not need a reason. If they choose a reason the reason has to be limited to certain documented reasons such as mafia/organized crime persons listed on the casino blacklist or known convicted criminals who are by court banned to be in any Nevada casino.

No where is there a law that states that they have the right to throw you out because you are a winner! This is at this time is still in limbo. Uston brought this out and won in New Jersey. It was to be litigated in Nevada but he was murdered or overdosed or was taken away by aliens before he could return to challenge the then casino industry. Too bad for AP's! Please read the court records from Ken Uston's case. Then maybe this urban legal legend of a Casinos right to throw AP's out by law will stop being promoted.

You know this is a current issue with ignorant casino people who imagine they know the law! Revereman with all respectful humbleness are you a Casino person?????

"Having written all that, thank you, Mayor for having a well-run site where we can (hopefully intelligently) debate these and other issues. "

You dont have to patronize his excellency he knows where your coming from.

 

[Inskipp]

Re: Why...

Respectfully, Mr. Mayor, I disagree.

The PERCEPTION that the game is beatable is very important to the ploppies. But the game actually BEING beatable is not.

Bad penetration, CSMs, and 6/5 are spreading because the PERCEPTION is that those games still are beatable. First the 6/5 was single decks on the strip; then it was some double decks; and now it has invaded downtown. I am sad to predict that soon shoes will be 6/5 all over Las Vegas, and card counting will be transformed from bb gun to a waste of time.

(Hole carding, shuffle tracking, and other advanced methods that still could work are so unknown to the general public that they have no effect on the perception).

No, we are no longer necessary to them. We did our part by spreading the word that the game could be beaten. It is now so ingrained in American thought, through books, movies, and TV that the game can be beaten, that 6/5, CSM, etc. will not dampen the ploppies' ardor.

 

[revereman]

Re: Why...

I've been called a lot of things in my life but never a casino employee. No, I am not a casino employee. I was not spreading any urban legends and did not write that the casinos had to give the player a reason for their action. I simply wrote that they can kick you out (in LV anyway) for winning or having a perceived advantage over the house. As I'm sure you know, Uston had a pyrrhic victory in AC. I imagine conditions in AC would have deteriorated anyway, but Uston sure sped up the process.

 

[john]

Re: Why...

Sadly, on my recent trip, I found some games that were paying even money for blackjacks. That is even worse than 6:5.

It is getting to the point where I have to ask the dealer how much is paid for blackjacks when I sit down.