South Point Blackjack

[KewlJ]

Are there any professional, semi-professional, or just serious blackjack players in Las Vegas or that play Las Vegas regularly that have South Point in their regular rotation of games?

I am not accusing South Point of cheating, as I have done with a couple other casinos over the years, but I have experienced some pretty odd results over the last month which has caught my attention and I would at least like to compare experiences with others players.

Specifically, it is the $25 minimum double deck games. Hand shuffled, so there is no issue with shuffle machines. I have only recently started playing this game at South Point as for a number of years South Point has been too sweaty and I haven't been able to get much play in. So my 6 sessions this month have all resulted in 10+ max bet losses. That is pretty unusual for the short sessions that I play. We are talking a little over 25 grand loss for the month for 6 fairly short sessions.

Here is the way it has gone for these 6 sessions. Almost every time through the cards, the count goes positive, leading to my larger bets. I just am not winning my share of those high count bets....at least over this period. I am not channeling my inner Zenking, but it is beginning to feel like the deck is rigged with more small cards and less 10's and aces which would cause high counts, but you won't win those those high count bets, just more small cards, especially on your double downs. Now again, 6 sessions is a very small sample size and I am not ready to accuse anyone of anything...I just want to compare with other players at this point.

One other odd thing. As I said, South Point has become extremely sweaty for me over recent years. They almost never allow players to play unrated. But during this month of sessions, the pit critters have all been suspiciously accommodating. No one has had a problem with me playing unrated.

Again, I am just looking for experiences from other players, since the re-opening, to compare experiences at this point.

 

[DSchles]

They can't possibly risk rigging a deck that could be confiscated by gaming officials. They'd lose their license on the spot. Sounds to me much more like card mechanics dealing seconds. You can't possibly beat such a situation. And it's VERY easily done at DD.

I was once cheated at the Riviera, and, if you can believe it, the dealer, whom I had known for years, actually whispered to me: "You should leave. You aren't going to win."

Don

 

[Counting_Is_Fun]

Are there any professional, semi-professional, or just serious blackjack players in Las Vegas or that play Las Vegas regularly that have South Point in their regular rotation of games?

I am not accusing South Point of cheating, as I have done with a couple other casinos over the years, but I have experienced some pretty odd results over the last month which has caught my attention and I would at least like to compare experiences with others players.

Specifically, it is the $25 minimum double deck games. Hand shuffled, so there is no issue with shuffle machines. I have only recently started playing this game at South Point as for a number of years South Point has been too sweaty and I haven't been able to get much play in. So my 6 sessions this month have all resulted in 10+ max bet losses. That is pretty unusual for the short sessions that I play. We are talking a little over 25 grand loss for the month for 6 fairly short sessions.

Here is the way it has gone for these 6 sessions. Almost every time through the cards, the count goes positive, leading to my larger bets. I just am not winning my share of those high count bets....at least over this period. I am not channeling my inner Zenking, but it is beginning to feel like the deck is rigged with more small cards and less 10's and aces which would cause high counts, but you won't win those those high count bets, just more small cards, especially on your double downs. Now again, 6 sessions is a very small sample size and I am not ready to accuse anyone of anything...I just want to compare with other players at this point.

One other odd thing. As I said, South Point has become extremely sweaty for me over recent years. They almost never allow players to play unrated. But during this month of sessions, the pit critters have all been suspiciously accommodating. No one has had a problem with me playing unrated.

Again, I am just looking for experiences from other players, since the re-opening, to compare experiences at this point.

KewlJ,
Come on man you know better than this.
You wonder about cheating after 6 short sessions?
Variance.
But no I have not played there in a long time.
And Southpoint has been sweaty and a tough place to play for years. Doesn't mean they are shorting the deck.

 

[KewlJ]

Don S: They are dealing the double deck game out of a shoe, face up. (this is the new Covid style where players don't touch the cards). So the dealer isn't holding the deck. I know seconds can still be dealt from a shoe, but that is not what is happening. And while I don't record each dealer that I play against as part of my records, unless there is reason to, I believe I have had 6 different dealers for these sessions, so I doubt they are all dealing seconds. Some of the responses I have received privately, do have some interesting stories though, similar to yours, which makes one think.

Counting is Fun: I am very familiar with shorts sessions and a small sample size as well as variance. Trust me....VERY familiar. Let me give a little summation of my play for the last month or so since I started playing again. I have 10 double deck games in my rotation at the moment. That is more than I normally have. Covid style has presented some additional opportunities.

So, out of the 10 games I have played, I am in the black at 8 of them. 4 of those 8, more than 5k, 4 just a few thousand. 2 games I am in the red. 1, I am in the red $197.50, which for all intensive purposes, about even. And the final game, I am in the red over 24 thousand dollars. Small sample size and all, THAT got my attention.

I am not out to prove anything or bring any case to gaming about anything. I already have enough that I will stop playing for a while. But just for curiosity sake, I am going to make myself available some day this week late morning / noon, when they open tables, just to see if they are spreading the cards. Some places have done away with spreading the cards in an effort to save time, which cheating or not cheating, I don't like. It disrupts the transparency / integrity factor that is so vital. So I will report back after I observe the table opening procedure, but again, I am not looking to prove anything to anyone, other than maybe myself.

 

[KewlJ]

So, out of the 10 games I have played, I am in the black at 8 of them. 4 of those 8, more than 5k, 4 just a few thousand. 2 games I am in the red. 1, I am in the red $197.50, which for all intensive purposes, about even. And the final game, I am in the red over 24 thousand dollars. Small sample size and all, THAT got my attention.

Let me show this data a different way which should make my concerns even clearer.

Casino 1: +4637.50
Casino 2: +2250.00
Casino 3: +6125.00
Casino 4: +1162.50
Casino 5: +775.00
Casino 6: +5400.00
Casino 7: +1442.50
Casino 8: +4125.00
Casino 9: -197.50
Casino 10: -25,262.50

Now do you see what drew my attention? Maybe it is just a whole lot of negative variance packed into a small sample size of 6 sessions. But it has my attention.

 

[Midwest Player]

One of the casinos I visit changes their DD cards about every two or three hours. They spread them out for all to see, but they don't wash them. They just shuffle and away they go. Many times cards come out very strange. Watch to see if they wash the cards.

 

[LV Bear]

One of the casinos I visit changes their DD cards about every two or three hours. They spread them out for all to see, but they don't wash them. They just shuffle and away they go. Many times cards come out very strange. Watch to see if they wash the cards.

Do they have the Royal Match side bet?

 

[Counting_Is_Fun]

Let me show this data a different way which should make my concerns even clearer.

Casino 1: +4637.50
Casino 2: +2250.00
Casino 3: +6125.00
Casino 4: +1162.50
Casino 5: +775.00
Casino 6: +5400.00
Casino 7: +1442.50
Casino 8: +4125.00
Casino 9: -197.50
Casino 10: -25,262.50

Now do you see what drew my attention? Maybe it is just a whole lot of negative variance packed into a small sample size of 6 sessions. But it has my attention.

C'mon man...variance.
DD is volatile...depending what kind of spread you use...you already know that.
I'm sure your top bet is pretty high...
And it's been a crazy year...are you sure your skills aren't rusty...sorry had to mention..

 

[KewlJ]

C'mon man...variance.
DD is volatile...depending what kind of spread you use...you already know that.
I'm sure your top bet is pretty high...
And it's been a crazy year...are you sure your skills aren't rusty...sorry had to mention..

My skills aren't rusty. lol.

yes, it could very well just be severe variance over a very small sample size. I think I have said that several times. that is why I wanted to compare experiences with other players who have played this property and this game recently. Is there anything wrong with that? That is what these forums are supposed to be about.

 

[DSchles]

My skills aren't rusty. lol.

yes, it could very well just be severe variance over a very small sample size. I think I have said that several times. that is why I wanted to compare experiences with other players who have played this property and this game recently. Is there anything wrong with that? That is what these forums are supposed to be about.

How many hours did you play at 10? What is your hourly e.v. and s.d.? We need to know how large of a loss 10 represents in s.d.s

Don

 

[beating vegas]

I highly doubt south point is cheating. variance Is most likely the issue.

 

[KewlJ]

I highly doubt south point is cheating. variance Is most likely the issue.

Well yes, I did just leave SP where I watched them open 3 double deck tables. They did spread the cards as normal.

I never said they were cheating so I don't think I have to apologize or admit I was wrong. I simply said that I found my results unusual. I am playing higher stakes of late and maybe I haven't adjusted to the higher swings (variance) that can occur with such stakes.

I am still taking a break from SP. As I always say the beauty of Las Vegas is quantity which means if a player is uncomfortable with any game, for any reason, there are other places to fish.

Thanks to those that shared their experiences and thoughts both publicly and privately.

 

[DSchles]

You didn't answer about e.v. and s.d. for the game you're playing. No need for dollars, just units. If you want to know if a result is beyond abnormal, the way to do it is statistically.

Don

 

[LC Larry]

Same ole story. When they win more than they should, they claim to be the greatest and nobody can beat them. When the opposite inevitably happens, the accusations start flying.

 

[Counting_Is_Fun]

Well yes, I did just leave SP where I watched them open 3 double deck tables. They did spread the cards as normal.

I never said they were cheating so I don't think I have to apologize or admit I was wrong. I simply said that I found my results unusual. I am playing higher stakes of late and maybe I haven't adjusted to the higher swings (variance) that can occur with such stakes.

I am still taking a break from SP. As I always say the beauty of Las Vegas is quantity which means if a player is uncomfortable with any game, for any reason, there are other places to fish.

Thanks to those that shared their experiences and thoughts both publicly and privately.

I'm sure you aren't rusty lol...I didn't mean to offend.
And yes, it must be nice to have so many games available. Jealous.
And just curious what the pen was like at SP or the others, if you wish to divulge. Or what kind of DD spread Vegas seems to tolerate during Covid etc.
DD can be a bitch as you well know...but for me the swings make it fun. I honestly have no idea how you guys play so much 6D and not go insane...lol.

 

[KewlJ]

Same ole story. When they win more than they should, they claim to be the greatest and nobody can beat them. When the opposite inevitably happens, the accusations start flying.

This is pretty dishonest of you. But I have come to expect nothing less. Show me one post where I ever said anything to the effect that I was the greatest or no one can beat me?

I also specifically stated several times that I was not accusing this property of cheating. SEVERAL TIMES. And yet you respond with "accusations start flying". Pure dishonesty.

What occurred was I found my results to be a little unusual. So I asked for other players experiences to compare, which I found helpful. I then looked at the possibility of cheating and rules that out. I then re-examined my numbers compared to simulations and decided, that while a bit unusual, it was more a case of my having recently increased the stakes I was playing and was still not used to the higher swings and variance that come with that.

So what is wrong with that? That is what these forums are for....to get input from others and share experiences. Why do dishonest people like you need to make it into something nefarious.

 

[21forme]

Care to answer Don's questions? That would be more telling, or is that too much info?

 

[DSchles]

Care to answer Don's questions/ That would be more telling, or is that too much info?

When you speak in units, it doesn't have to be too much info. All we need is something like: hourly e.v. is x units. Hourly s.d. is y units. I played z hours and lost d units. The rest is pure math. It's either within, say, 2.5-3 s.d.s, or it's ridiculously beyond that. If the latter, you start to wonder. All pretty straightforward.

Don

 

[KewlJ]

Care to answer Don's questions/ That would be more telling, or is that too much info?

I don't see the need to further discuss it right now. I ran the numbers to satisfy myself. It is a little over 3 S.D.'s.

BUT, there was one crazy hand involving 3 splits and double downs that of course lost all. I hate it when people mention a specific hand like that because anyone that plays regularly encounters those. They are irrelevant over the long run. But when you are looking at or comparing a small sample size, such a hand can skew results significantly favorably or unfavorable.

I am comfortable at this time that I just ran into some significant negative variance over a fairly small sample size. It just so happened that this occurred just as I began playing higher stakes and caught me off guard. I hadn't adjusted to my "new normal". I will be keeping an eye on it though.

 

[21forme]

I suppose that one hand was at max bet...