spanish 21

Pros:
-Considered a carny game, most places don't even look for card counters in this game.
-Advantage increases by more per TC than in blackjack.
Hence it is easier (and prudent) to get away with a large spread.

Cons:
-Due to more complex rules, this game is harder... The basic strategy is more complex, and it is worth it to memorize a ton of indices as more of the advantage is gained by index plays than in blackjack.
-Oh, and there is alot more information readily available for blackjack... It's been around longer, studied more from various points of view.
 
You are most likely referring to the Atlantic City game, where your expectation is better than at Blackjack, especially H17.

I have drawn major heat [betting light green] at several casinos in A.C., but that may be primarily because I am "persona non grata" almost everywhere.

Most people receive no heat it is true and larger than normal spreads are tolerated.

Note: the game is VERY slow due to a ponderous side-bet called "Match the Dealer" that most ploppies bet.

The tables are limited in number and are almost always crowded, with many casinos having just one or two tables, and none having more than a few.

Go to wizard of odds.com where you can learn a great deal about the game, including a correct Basic Strategy.

GO To: http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21

and .... http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/spanish21.html

After you read through the above webpages, you MAY consider purchasing the good book by Katarina Walker.
 
farmdoggy said:
Pros:
-Considered a carny game, most places don't even look for card counters in this game.
-Advantage increases by more per TC than in blackjack.
Hence it is easier (and prudent) to get away with a large spread.
Click to expand...

Don't quite agree, the advantage goes up slowly, and more so if you are not using a strong (and unpublished, and complicated) count. The big mathematical advantage is that both variance and covariance are lower, particularly for the S17 version. Thus you can make up for the lower advantage with bigger bets relative to your bankroll.

farmdoggy said:
Cons:
-Due to more complex rules, this game is harder... The basic strategy is more complex, and it is worth it to memorize a ton of indices as more of the advantage is gained by index plays than in blackjack.
-Oh, and there is alot more information readily available for blackjack... It's been around longer, studied more from various points of view.
Click to expand...

Yes, you really want to be a simulator jockey to play SP21. But I wouldn't say a ton of indices- just like in BJ there are a dozen really good ones and the rest are of minimal value, but they can add up. One of the curious things about SP21 is that if you use a strong playing count and enough indices, the disadvantage stops increasing at extreme low counts and even turns around somewhat because you will hit more of the multi-card and 876/777 bonuses.
 
Thanks

Thanks for the reply. Something I will look into but for now I'll stick with BJ. I must add reading the message boards lots of very bright people here. Thanks again.
 
farmdoggy said:
Pros:
-Considered a carny game, most places don't even look for card counters in this game.
-Advantage increases by more per TC than in blackjack.
Hence it is easier (and prudent) to get away with a large spread.
Click to expand...

A couple years ago, this may have been accurate, but it's certainly not the case today, now that a book has been published and there are several ridiculous claims that the game is "better" than blackjack.

There may be a few places at remote locations who will leave you alone on Spanish, but in areas where the game is readily available, you're just as likely to get counter-measured and/or backed off SP21 as you are on BJ. More than half of my backoffs in the past couple years have been on SP21. The idea that you can blast away aggressively and get away with it is simply no longer true.

I also don't necesarily agree with the comments that SP21 is lower variance. Certainly the version I typically play (which allows double-double down) is higher variance. The result of several of my sessions comes down to what happened on my max bet redoubles, and I see much wilder session results and bankroll fluctuations with SP21 than I'd ever seen with BJ. I'm not as familiar with the S17 game, but recall hearing that even with it, you double-down more frequently than you do in BJ. That alone would increase your variance.

About the only benefit to learning SP21 is to give you more options. If you live in an area or travel to an area frequently which has a lot of SP21, it might be worth the effort to learn the game. If you're not able to play the game on a regular basis, I'd look for other opportunities.
 
EmeraldCityBJ said:
I also don't necesarily agree with the comments that SP21 is lower variance. Certainly the version I typically play (which allows double-double down) is higher variance. The result of several of my sessions comes down to what happened on my max bet redoubles, and I see much wilder session results and bankroll fluctuations with SP21 than I'd ever seen with BJ. I'm not as familiar with the S17 game, but recall hearing that even with it, you double-down more frequently than you do in BJ. That alone would increase your variance.
Click to expand...

True, but you can also surrender your double downs. Anyway, Kat Walker has the variance of Sp21 at 1.36 with a covariance of 0.40, while blackjack I believe has a variance of 1.32 with a covariance of 0.48, according to http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix4.html
 
The (composition-dependant) Basic Strategy Charts are actually too extensive for a tourist.

For the purely recreational player red-chip who may (have to) play Span21 once or twice a year — the requisite effort isn't close to being worth it.

I fully agree with EmeraldCityBJ.

A seldom referenced reality is that a larger bankroll is also needed.

I had been backed-off 5 times (in 2010) playing low-stakes Span21.

Sadly, there is NO likelihood of there every being a revised text on Span21 by Katarina Walker.
 
Unlike Flash's experience with backoffs, I have never been backed off at Sp21, playing at many of the same places, spreading from 1x10-15 to 2x300-400.

As a matter of fact (and I still can't figure this one out), after playing several hours of Sp21 at a CT casino, I went over to a BJ table. After about 15 minutes at the BJ table I was backed off. I'm sure it was related to play from my previous trip there and a post-play skills check analysis.
 
All of my backoffs at Span21 were at properties where I had prior backoffs playing BJ. IF I were entirely unknown perhaps I would not have received heat.
 
EmeraldCityBJ said:
A couple years ago, this may have been accurate, but it's certainly not the case today, now that a book has been published and there are several ridiculous claims that the game is "better" than blackjack.

There may be a few places at remote locations who will leave you alone on Spanish, but in areas where the game is readily available, you're just as likely to get counter-measured and/or backed off SP21 as you are on BJ. More than half of my backoffs in the past couple years have been on SP21. The idea that you can blast away aggressively and get away with it is simply no longer true.

I also don't necesarily agree with the comments that SP21 is lower variance. Certainly the version I typically play (which allows double-double down) is higher variance. The result of several of my sessions comes down to what happened on my max bet redoubles, and I see much wilder session results and bankroll fluctuations with SP21 than I'd ever seen with BJ. I'm not as familiar with the S17 game, but recall hearing that even with it, you double-down more frequently than you do in BJ. That alone would increase your variance.

About the only benefit to learning SP21 is to give you more options. If you live in an area or travel to an area frequently which has a lot of SP21, it might be worth the effort to learn the game. If you're not able to play the game on a regular basis, I'd look for other opportunities.
Click to expand...

You double much less in S17 SP21, and most of the doubles you miss are the high-variance soft doubles (<A6) which I really don't miss! Hitting all those stiffs also decreases variance, because some wins and losses are converted to pushes.

There's lower covariance because there are fewer dealer busts and dealer naturals, which tend to affect the whole table equally.
 
FLASH1296 said:
You are most likely referring to the Atlantic City game, where your expectation is better than at Blackjack, especially H17.

I have drawn major heat [betting light green] at several casinos in A.C., but that may be primarily because I am "persona non grata" almost everywhere.

Most people receive no heat it is true and larger than normal spreads are tolerated.

according to wizard of odds, House edge 0.40%, S17 base on
dlr has hole card?
will dlr peek n open immediately if it is natural?
player loss all DD/ split to BJ?
how the H.E. increase if not allow to hit for splitted Aces?
Click to expand...
 

In the U S A dealer ALWAYS begins with 2 cards.

In Australia, and some other Asian venues a variant called "Pontoon"
is offered where the dealer does NOT take a hole-card.

In Span21 your Blackjacks are paid before the dealer "peeks"

Your other 21's are automatic winners. Not "pushable".

The penalty for being unable to draw to ~ or ~ double on
Split Aces is dramatic. I know of only one casino in the USA that resorts
to such duplicity, Mohegan Sun in Connecticut.

I would NOT play such a game without some compensating rule change.
 
geneticfreak said:
Mohegan Sun Pocono also has the single card to split aces rule.
Click to expand...
That has been changed. A complaint was filed with PA Gaming, and they agreed that multiple hits must be allowed on split aces in Sp21. If you were there in the last 2 weeks and it hasn't been changed, contact gaming and remind them.
 
That's good news. I was there the week the got the game and they insisted they were right and I was wrong.

I was also pleasantly surprised to find it at Hollywood, PA this week.
 

DyePaintBall, you posted:

"Huge carny game. Cannot be beat. No way."

Please use appropriate emoticons if being humorous.

I have played mostly Spanish21 for the last 2+ yrs.
 
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