splitting tens
- Thread starter trog
- Start date
couple of answers.
Wong's complete hi-lo indices say split 10-10 vs 6 at +4, 10-10 vs 5 at +5, 10-10 vs 4 at +6, and if you want to go further, 10-10 vs 3 at +8...
They may or may not attract attention, depending on how you do it and what kind of "personna" you project at the table. It is one of the highest-EV plays around when done correctly, but it is also one of the most spectacular, and one of the most noticed.
There are good "apparent reasons" for doing this. If you have an obnoxious player at the table, that keeps ragging players about making wrong decisions or about "screwing up the flow of the cards" then you can split 10's at the right time, saying something like "OK, you want to see someone screw up the flow of the cards, watch this..." Etc...
Wong's complete hi-lo indices say split 10-10 vs 6 at +4, 10-10 vs 5 at +5, 10-10 vs 4 at +6, and if you want to go further, 10-10 vs 3 at +8...
They may or may not attract attention, depending on how you do it and what kind of "personna" you project at the table. It is one of the highest-EV plays around when done correctly, but it is also one of the most spectacular, and one of the most noticed.
There are good "apparent reasons" for doing this. If you have an obnoxious player at the table, that keeps ragging players about making wrong decisions or about "screwing up the flow of the cards" then you can split 10's at the right time, saying something like "OK, you want to see someone screw up the flow of the cards, watch this..." Etc...
BEST TIME to Split 10's.......
Agree that this "move" is an excellent Ploppy Deterrent! And probably not that costly in EV, when you are otherwise getting away with a Wide Spread. Certainly, -EV easily made-up (presuming this move is being made at ultra-Neg. TC's) by Heads-up action and LOTS more rounds per Hr./session. Except for DD on Stiffs, I have seen no other move clear the table as quick as a "10-splitter".
OTHERWISE, the BEST TIME to Split 10's is:
(1) At the appropriate ++TC's.
(2) AND, Especially SWEET when TC is high enough, and/or "draws" LOW ENOUGH, to justify RS-10's (i.e., Re-split 10's).
(3) AND, OTHERWISE, probably should be reserved for your LAST 1-2 Hands of a Positive Shoe/Deck, WHEN YOU WERE LEAVING ANYHOW!.....will just draw too much attention....unless, of course, as above, you do it frequently (in Neg. Cts.).
Personally, as a "PAMILS", i.e., "Play-All, Mega-Indicie, Low-Spreader" type of player, I cannot afford to make this move in Neg. Cts. However, in that I am often making PRIMAE FACIAE STUPID Plays anyways (Hit 12 v. 6, 14 v. 2, not DD'ing 11 v. 10....in of course, Neg. Cts.), I often can get away with a few 10-Splits here-and-there.
Phantom007.
Agree that this "move" is an excellent Ploppy Deterrent! And probably not that costly in EV, when you are otherwise getting away with a Wide Spread. Certainly, -EV easily made-up (presuming this move is being made at ultra-Neg. TC's) by Heads-up action and LOTS more rounds per Hr./session. Except for DD on Stiffs, I have seen no other move clear the table as quick as a "10-splitter".
OTHERWISE, the BEST TIME to Split 10's is:
(1) At the appropriate ++TC's.
(2) AND, Especially SWEET when TC is high enough, and/or "draws" LOW ENOUGH, to justify RS-10's (i.e., Re-split 10's).
(3) AND, OTHERWISE, probably should be reserved for your LAST 1-2 Hands of a Positive Shoe/Deck, WHEN YOU WERE LEAVING ANYHOW!.....will just draw too much attention....unless, of course, as above, you do it frequently (in Neg. Cts.).
Personally, as a "PAMILS", i.e., "Play-All, Mega-Indicie, Low-Spreader" type of player, I cannot afford to make this move in Neg. Cts. However, in that I am often making PRIMAE FACIAE STUPID Plays anyways (Hit 12 v. 6, 14 v. 2, not DD'ing 11 v. 10....in of course, Neg. Cts.), I often can get away with a few 10-Splits here-and-there.
Phantom007.
I was really thinking
of only positive counts. That is, I don't split 10's in - count situations except _very_ rarely when someone is so damned obnoxious that it is worthwhile simply to make the game more enjoyable by chasing them off. But with a + count (correct index play) it is still dangerous. And there is where you can misdirect attention by appearing to split tens to aggravate an obnoxious player, or you can say "the cards have been miserable, I'm going to split these to change the flow and see if it gets better." Etc...
I'm one of those "no -EV plays if at all possible". Which means that I really try to play correctly every play, unless there is some reason to deviate. Heat or scrutiny. Or an obnoxious ass.
of only positive counts. That is, I don't split 10's in - count situations except _very_ rarely when someone is so damned obnoxious that it is worthwhile simply to make the game more enjoyable by chasing them off. But with a + count (correct index play) it is still dangerous. And there is where you can misdirect attention by appearing to split tens to aggravate an obnoxious player, or you can say "the cards have been miserable, I'm going to split these to change the flow and see if it gets better." Etc...
I'm one of those "no -EV plays if at all possible". Which means that I really try to play correctly every play, unless there is some reason to deviate. Heat or scrutiny. Or an obnoxious ass.
just remember
Just remember that your declaration about changing the flow and anything else you say or do that might influence the pit into thinking you are just some maniac gambler does you no good if the eye is already evaluating your play.
For that reason and all the attention you do bring to yourself, I (there have been exceptions) split tens when three things happen, the count calls for it, the shoe is almost over and I am leaving the casino. This way even if the eye was evaluating my play, I am out the door before they can show me the door. And we all know that after you split tens, if they were not watching you before, they will be now.
Victoria
Just remember that your declaration about changing the flow and anything else you say or do that might influence the pit into thinking you are just some maniac gambler does you no good if the eye is already evaluating your play.
For that reason and all the attention you do bring to yourself, I (there have been exceptions) split tens when three things happen, the count calls for it, the shoe is almost over and I am leaving the casino. This way even if the eye was evaluating my play, I am out the door before they can show me the door. And we all know that after you split tens, if they were not watching you before, they will be now.
Victoria
good point
When I split 10's on a high count, I am leaving very soon anyway, as you point out it attracts attention. But also don't forget, I don't believe that the eye will watch unless the pit has raised a red flag first. Staying under the pit's radar generally should keep the eye away unless things are very slow or they just happen to pick your table to train a new surv. guy/girl...
When I split 10's on a high count, I am leaving very soon anyway, as you point out it attracts attention. But also don't forget, I don't believe that the eye will watch unless the pit has raised a red flag first. Staying under the pit's radar generally should keep the eye away unless things are very slow or they just happen to pick your table to train a new surv. guy/girl...
You can split 10's on other counts too
Occasionally splitting 10's on decent counts like +1 or +2 against 5 or 6 where you're not at a terrible disadvantage but where you haven't started to raise your bet costs you a little bit but not as much as failing to split them at high counts. So I throw some extra 10 splits in there, it makes some ploppies leave and if surveillance is counting along with me, they're thinking I'm not doing a very good job. Lots of fun things can be done for cover at minimum bet levels with no real harm done. Sometimes I toss out a red for partial insurance too, just like a ploppy does.
Then there's the dreaded DD on 12!
Occasionally splitting 10's on decent counts like +1 or +2 against 5 or 6 where you're not at a terrible disadvantage but where you haven't started to raise your bet costs you a little bit but not as much as failing to split them at high counts. So I throw some extra 10 splits in there, it makes some ploppies leave and if surveillance is counting along with me, they're thinking I'm not doing a very good job. Lots of fun things can be done for cover at minimum bet levels with no real harm done. Sometimes I toss out a red for partial insurance too, just like a ploppy does.
Then there's the dreaded DD on 12!
Ploppies Split Tens
I see idiots splitting tens all the time when I play. I have never seen an appropriate split based on the count--except by me of course. I would agree it's a great way to chase people away. But with all of the different types of players out there with different levels of skill, does that truly bring on heat? Are there other plays which bring on heat? For example, I do hit on a hard 17 sometimes when the count demands it. Is that just as bad?
I see idiots splitting tens all the time when I play. I have never seen an appropriate split based on the count--except by me of course. I would agree it's a great way to chase people away. But with all of the different types of players out there with different levels of skill, does that truly bring on heat? Are there other plays which bring on heat? For example, I do hit on a hard 17 sometimes when the count demands it. Is that just as bad?
cowboy exactly it is a great dummy move
its amazing how many counters are afraid of it.
I saw a very good player that was sitting beside Stanford Wong
and his friend,
a while back and another good player at the table
split tens boy o boy Wong and his friend left
immediatly..I guess they thought
it would bring heat the scared boys ran.no one was doing anything..
talk about jumping the gun..
Bringing heat is what so many do,,play at a 25
table play at 100 then drop to 25 then move up to 300.etc.
its amazing how many counters are afraid of it.
I saw a very good player that was sitting beside Stanford Wong
and his friend,
a while back and another good player at the table
split tens boy o boy Wong and his friend left
immediatly..I guess they thought
it would bring heat the scared boys ran.no one was doing anything..
talk about jumping the gun..
Bringing heat is what so many do,,play at a 25
table play at 100 then drop to 25 then move up to 300.etc.
How about insure then surrender?
Oh does that one get attention! Normally I just pay that one straight, explaining to the dealer and players that insurance is just a sidebet and it has nothing to do with your hand. Or I'll use some tritism like "Insure the bet, not the hand" because in the shoe game when you take insurance you invariably have a large bet out.
Oh does that one get attention! Normally I just pay that one straight, explaining to the dealer and players that insurance is just a sidebet and it has nothing to do with your hand. Or I'll use some tritism like "Insure the bet, not the hand" because in the shoe game when you take insurance you invariably have a large bet out.
yeah...
I had an interesting problem doing that last year on the MS coast. Dealer had an Ace showing, I and a 9-7. TC was +6, so I promptly insured. No 10 down, so I surrendered. Dealer said "you can't surrender, you just insured and lost." I said "insurance is a side-bet independent of my hand. Whether i win or lose the insurance doesn't affect my hand except that if I win the insurance, I lose my hand since you had a 21..."
This went on and on, pit critter came over. Finally a call "upstairs" allowed my surrender. I immediately left, too much attention.
I had an interesting problem doing that last year on the MS coast. Dealer had an Ace showing, I and a 9-7. TC was +6, so I promptly insured. No 10 down, so I surrendered. Dealer said "you can't surrender, you just insured and lost." I said "insurance is a side-bet independent of my hand. Whether i win or lose the insurance doesn't affect my hand except that if I win the insurance, I lose my hand since you had a 21..."
This went on and on, pit critter came over. Finally a call "upstairs" allowed my surrender. I immediately left, too much attention.
Another Way To Play 16 vs. A
SSR,
When I get the dreaded 16 vs. A at a Surrender game, I just toss them in and surrender while the dealer is asking for insurance bets.
<U>Usually</U>, the dealer tells me I have to wait for her to check for BJ, but you'd be surprised how many half-bets I've saved over the years! ;-)
Dog Hand
SSR,
When I get the dreaded 16 vs. A at a Surrender game, I just toss them in and surrender while the dealer is asking for insurance bets.
<U>Usually</U>, the dealer tells me I have to wait for her to check for BJ, but you'd be surprised how many half-bets I've saved over the years! ;-)
Dog Hand