Spooked

Tarzan · Mar 4, 2009

Those of you that play often enough all know what I am talking about. "Twilight Zone Blackjack", "Vegas Vacation Style Blackjack"... those times when that dealer can get nothing but 20, 21 or back to back blackjacks while you get that ugly 12-16 every single hand and break every single time you hit it. This goes on for shoes in a row regardless of what the count is doing... the one time you get a blackjack, the dealer has one also! You get that rare 20 against the dealers 6 up card and are thinking,"Well, I might finally win a hand" but this is not the case as the dealer pulls the miracle 5 on top of his 16 and you lose that hand too!

It happens... it happens to the best of us, it has happened to anyone who has played the game for any length of time at one point or another. Now to my question...Have you ever been "spooked" off a table because of this to look for greener pastures or have you "gone strictly with the math" and remained there against what appears to be the world's luckiest dealer(for that particular moment in time at least) that can't miss no matter what, waiting for the next quality count/shoe and then throw it out there without flinching?

I have flinched... I admit it. Unless there is some major reason to try and hang on there, such as a count starting to go off the chart I bail out and regroup, seeking to change it up and get away from "the dealer from hell". This is one of the burning questions I posed upon Flash when we hung out and played in AC together, so I already know his answer! He is a "strictly by the math sort of guy" that ignores such things and assumes no dealer is unbeatable. It has been my experience to scoot to another table, another casino, etc. and eventually wander back in that direction only to see that same dealer slaughtering all who come in their path! A few dealers I know and one I know as a close friend has said that there are those times when they are incredibly hot and this trend seems to go with them for their entire shift or at least most of it. I tended to agree as I have seen this in action first hand.

I would like to hear from other professionals (or part time players that I would consider experts) such as Shad, Callipygian, AutoMonkey, Sonny, Ken, Zen, etc., on your thought processes here. Have you ever ran across the "dealer from hell" and been spooked off a table or have you ignored any ridiculously lucky runs on the dealers part that are seemingly endless, shrugged it off and stayed right there at the same table to continue to battle it out with them?

creeping panther · Mar 4, 2009

By all means

Tarzan said:

Those of you that play often enough all know what I am talking about. "Twilight Zone Blackjack", "Vegas Vacation Style Blackjack"... those times when that dealer can get nothing but 20, 21 or back to back blackjacks while you get that ugly 12-16 every single hand and break every single time you hit it. This goes on for shoes in a row regardless of what the count is doing... the one time you get a blackjack, the dealer has one also! You get that rare 20 against the dealers 6 up card and are thinking,"Well, I might finally win a hand" but this is not the case as the dealer pulls the miracle 5 on top of his 16 and you lose that hand too!

It happens... it happens to the best of us, it has happened to anyone who has played the game for any length of time at one point or another. Now to my question...Have you ever been "spooked" off a table because of this to look for greener pastures or have you "gone strictly with the math" and remained there against what appears to be the world's luckiest dealer(for that particular moment in time at least) that can't miss no matter what, waiting for the next quality count/shoe and then throw it out there without flinching?

I have flinched... I admit it. Unless there is some major reason to try and hang on there, such as a count starting to go off the chart I bail out and regroup, seeking to change it up and get away from "the dealer from hell". This is one of the burning questions I posed upon Flash when we hung out and played in AC together, so I already know his answer! He is a "strictly by the math sort of guy" that ignores such things and assumes no dealer is unbeatable.

I would like to hear from other professionals (or part time players that I would consider experts) such as Shad, Callipygian, AutoMonkey, Sonny, Ken, Zen, etc., on your thought processes here. Have you ever ran across the "dealer from hell" and been spooked off a table or have you ignored any ridiculously lucky runs on the dealers part, shrugged it off and stayed right there at the same table to continue to battle it out with them?

When the dealer is just kickin your Arse shoe after shoe, slipper aftert slipper JUST STAY THERE AND ENJOY. I mean, why bother to take a break or move to another table, what sense would that Make:laugh: Stay there and show the dealer who's the REAL MAN

:laugh:

CP

Automatic Monkey · Mar 4, 2009

I've had many sessions like that but I've never fled out of frustration or superstition. Usually I run out of money before that happens! If I'm sick of losing sometimes that's a good time to take a break and have a meal, but I've never walked away from a good count or a great game as long as I have money to play it.

What I will do is play up those moments and try to make myself look like a depressed, degenerate gambler who prefers to lose. I've told the table I was cursed for life, sometimes on account of some sin. Once in a deep, depressed drunk act in AC I told the table my life of losing gambling was my punishment for messing with my sister when I was a kid, and I tried to get the table to forswear incest lest they end up like me. Funny as hell, cleared the table out and I got some money back from the resulting high-speed game.

gordon5432 · Mar 4, 2009

Automatic Monkey said:

Once in a deep, depressed drunk act in AC I told the table my life of losing gambling was my punishment for messing with my sister when I was a kid, and I tried to get the table to forswear incest lest they end up like me.

:laugh:

Tarzan · Mar 4, 2009

West Virginia Blackjack

The ol' "sick turkey" approach, AutoMonkey! Hmmm... stylish... unique... HILARIOUS--I like it!!! But what if the trend continues after you have the dealer heads up? No significant count or clump issue you would bail and grab a bite, take a break at least?

Creeping Panther agrees with me and I can think I can put him in that category of "panel of experts". This is an important question and worth thorough evaluation I thought. I was having trouble debating whether it goes here in general or in "voodoo" though!! Is there a "happy medium" answer to this also?

callipygian · Mar 4, 2009

Tarzan said:

Wow, I was lumped together with some awesome company - most certainly undeservedly. I enjoy the math of counting cards from the math side, and am by no stretch of the imagination an expert.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "dealer from hell" - just a dealer that wins a lot, or a dealer that intentionally tries to screw with your game?

In terms of dealer winning a lot, I have a pretty high tolerance for losing my bankroll, and as such, have no problems with getting slaughtered over and over again so long as the count warrants playing. If the dealer is drawing blackjack a lot, I'll probably leave, but because the count drops, not because I keep losing.

In terms of intentional "dealing from hell" - I consider this to be essentially the first level of heat. Basically, a dealer gets switched in mid-rotation and starts alternating dealing really fast and really slow. I assume the point is to screw with your counting in the really fast phases, and to piss you off in the really slow phases.

The first time it happened to me I stuck through two shoes and kept spreading to prove to them I wasn't going to be scared off that easily, but then afterward I realize I don't give a crap what casinos think of me. If surveillance is questioning my sexuality as I tuck tail and run, so be it. Now, I just leave if an unscheduled dealer jumps in and starts dealing really fast.

Then again - and this is why my experience (or lack thereof) is important - I have almost nothing to lose by being overly cautious about heat. I play infrequently (1-2 trips per year) at huge casinos (Las Vegas Strip) for chump change, both with respect to the casinos I play at and with respect to my non-blackjack income. If I played with financial targets or somehow depended on my results, I wouldn't be so cavalier about leaving a joint and not going back for a full year or playing with a 30% ROR on my bankroll.

You should always play strictly according to the math, as FLASH advised. The only time you should quit at a high count is if you're losing emotional control and can't play strictly according to the math.

shadroch · Mar 4, 2009

I haven't, but my wallet would be much fuller if I had. I've had two such experiances, both at the El Cortez.
Once, I sat down to play 1 on 1 at the $3 Double Deck. Bought in for $100.
Bet $5 on a fresh shoe, $3 if the count was negative. Thru 3 shuffles, I won two hands.
The other was on their $5 SD. The last hour of a fairly successful trip. Lost every hand of the first shuffle, won one of the second, pushed back to back BJs on the fresh third deck, and ended up dropping $230 in less than a half hour. Thankfully, I was playing very low limit.

BTW- Thanks for the kind words but I do not belong in the catagory of the other players on your list. I'm a comp counting, coupon abusing type of player, not a serious AP.

Kasi · Mar 4, 2009

Tarzan said:

Well, nothing wrong with taking a break if you get frustrated. Who knows, maybe he's cheating or a 5 is stuck in the ASM or something lol.

But, what I'd do, instead of wandering around to another casino and feeling sorry for yourself, is go back to my room and compare the results of those "shoes from hell" from expected and take my best guess as to how unlikely such results actually were.

Often helps to equate the extreme emotional pain to perhaps the reality that this is what a mere 2 or 2.5 SD's may mean and it is just that likely to happen lol.

If it's less than 2 SD's, you're just a sissy. Recommend dominatrix to increase tolerance to pain levels.

If it's 3.5 to 4 SD's, you did meet the dealer from hell but take solace in how unlikely such pain will re-occur lol. If you play thousands of hands and it's still in that range, I actually know the pain you're feeling except it lasted a lot longer lol.

Assuming you hung in there and played consistently and some of the pain isn't due to betting bigger when you're losing more lol.

bjcount · Mar 4, 2009

Tarzan said:

I usually sit and take the abuse, but have sometimes thought about changing my tune. A few trips back I lost about 100u in multiple tables over 8 hrs, every dealer pulled 21 against my 20's. Just one major arse whippin'.
The next time I went back I lost 50u in one hour and jumped 5 different tables.
So my findings are... it doesn't matter which way you go. You can get up from a hot dealer just when she's ready to cool off. The math is the way to go.

BJC

jimmtech · Mar 4, 2009

I was considering posting this question and you beat me to the punch.

Recently, while playing a deeply dealt 6D game with fast dealers and no heat, the dealer turned up naturals 7 times in 1 deck - cleared out the whole table except for me and 1 other. Sometimes the count went a little minus, but with otherwise great conditions, so I stayed - next deck another 7 BJs for the dealer - now I am heads up. Dealer changes - next shoe - 5 BJs AND 4 or 5 times the dealer turns up multi-card 21s. Lost several max bets and just got too flustered to continue playing there and moved on...

Another time - deep pen on 2D DOA - lost every hand for 2 shoes including some bigger bets..

Another time - great 2D - high counts lots of big bets - 120 units gone - I sucked it up and kept matching my bets to the count but just could not win...

The prevailing response here would seem to be: "I can handle any and all negative variance you can shovel at me! - Bring it on!!"

Well, If I am so destined, I'd rather not lose half my bankroll tonight, thank you very much.

I guess it's voodoo, but numerous times a change of venue does wonders - I was battling a dealer for about 45 minutes - heads up - good counts - just losing - down about 30 units - I finally gave up and moved to another table and won it all back in 5 minutes!

Thunder · Mar 4, 2009

My thoughts

I know there is no mathematical proof for it and maybe this belongs in the voodoo section, but I've noticed in my experience that after a few bad shoes in a row, that's usually a sign that bad things are going to keep happening at that table. I've lost entire trip bankrolls in the past by sticking around waiting for my luck to turn. Now I just get up, look for a table where the player's stacks are pretty decent and take a seat if I'm not wonging. Call me superstitious but it seems to work a lot better than staying at the same table with the dealer from hell. My worst single session loss ever was when I was playing a $10 table at the Taj a few years ago and lost $1800 because I was too stubborn to get up and take it like a man. The dealer that night seemed to enjoy watching my buddy and I lose pulling 21s all night long with his stiff hands and me getting stiff hands every time I doubled.

Just for the hell of it, every time I sit down at a table I'm going to do an experiment where I keep track of my results for the first 3 shoes. My theory is this. If I'm up 10 units or more after 3 shoes, the table will continue to be hot.
If I'm down 10 units or more after 3 shoes, the table will continue to be cold and I'll be risking losing my bankroll for the night. If I'm down 5-10 units after 3 shoes, table is dangerous and I should seek better opportunities else where. If I'm up 5-10 units after 3 shoes, then table is alright but I probably won't make a ton. Keep in mind this is for 4+ decks.

I'll document the results if I don't forget on here.
Anything in between and it'll be a roller coaster type night.

Automatic Monkey · Mar 4, 2009

Tarzan said:

Well as Yogi says: "Don't try to do what you can't do." If it's hurting you too much to go on- stop. They will still be dealing blackjack when you're ready to play again. And in the same spirit, if your luck has been so good and you've got such a big pile in front of you that you think you're Superman- stop. I personally find dealing with good variance more challenging than dealing with the bad kind.

SD Padres · Mar 4, 2009

I think it's human nature to focus on the negative or awful sessions that occur fairly often. But on the flip side there are sessions where you can do no wrong and you turn stiff hands into great hands etc. For some reason we tend to forget or minimize those times and remember only the bad.

It's just the flow of the game. There will be times when the dealer just won't seem to bust.

I play by the math and for the long run. I don't get superstitious and leave because a dealer is pulling $%^& out of his/her a$$. I only quit until I've exhausted my session BR, doubled my session BR or exceeded my predetermined time allowed in one store.

creeping panther · Mar 4, 2009

Tarzan said:

Those of you that play often enough all know what I am talking about. "Twilight Zone Blackjack", "Vegas Vacation Style Blackjack"... those times when that dealer can get nothing but 20, 21 or back to back blackjacks while you get that ugly 12-16 every single hand and break every single time you hit it. This goes on for shoes in a row regardless of what the count is doing... the one time you get a blackjack, the dealer has one also! You get that rare 20 against the dealers 6 up card and are thinking,"Well, I might finally win a hand" but this is not the case as the dealer pulls the miracle 5 on top of his 16 and you lose that hand too!

It happens... it happens to the best of us, it has happened to anyone who has played the game for any length of time at one point or another. Now to my question...Have you ever been "spooked" off a table because of this to look for greener pastures or have you "gone strictly with the math" and remained there against what appears to be the world's luckiest dealer(for that particular moment in time at least) that can't miss no matter what, waiting for the next quality count/shoe and then throw it out there without flinching?

I have flinched... I admit it. Unless there is some major reason to try and hang on there, such as a count starting to go off the chart I bail out and regroup, seeking to change it up and get away from "the dealer from hell". This is one of the burning questions I posed upon Flash when we hung out and played in AC together, so I already know his answer! He is a "strictly by the math sort of guy" that ignores such things and assumes no dealer is unbeatable. It has been my experience to scoot to another table, another casino, etc. and eventually wander back in that direction only to see that same dealer slaughtering all who come in their path! A few dealers I know and one I know as a close friend has said that there are those times when they are incredibly hot and this trend seems to go with them for their entire shift or at least most of it. I tended to agree as I have seen this in action first hand.

I would like to hear from other professionals (or part time players that I would consider experts) such as Shad, Callipygian, AutoMonkey, Sonny, Ken, Zen, etc., on your thought processes here. Have you ever ran across the "dealer from hell" and been spooked off a table or have you ignored any ridiculously lucky runs on the dealers part that are seemingly endless, shrugged it off and stayed right there at the same table to continue to battle it out with them?

Tarzan,

There are times that there is only one table open with the game I want to play and the dealer is getting the cards to do as you write about above.

At this time it is up to me to do all I can to get his cards, to disrupt his nailing me over and over. One way to do this is careful cut card placment, and other ways that I will not mention publicly. Actually I have had great success in handling this situation, but if I have an option I will simply find another table.

You are wise to question CW.

CP.

StudiodeKadent · Mar 4, 2009

Losing streaks suck. I hate when you have a situation similar to that described by the original poster.

However, there are winning streaks as well.

And honestly, the emotional rollercoaster is part of the fun.

SystemsTrader · Mar 4, 2009

Advantage play blackjack is a wild roller coaster ride for your bankroll. Tarzan if you expect to make money at this game you are going to have to stop thinking like a ploppy, superstition has no place in this game. The ups and downs are simply part of the experience, like it or not it is unavoidable you simply must accept them. I understand my words probably sound hollow right now.

What you should strive for is to simply execute your system flawlessly and if you can do this success will follow. Play the game like a robot (cover aside) and play your game like you are supposed to through the good and bad shoes. If after this you are still having trouble accepting the bad shoes then you should consider lowering you ROR and playing at a more comfortable level. I also hope you are adequately bankrolled as this allows you to weather the ups and downs with much more ease.

I've been on this board for a long time now and have seen so many players come and go. Many of them are so gung ho with this new hobby they post all the time then what happens is they hit a tough losing streak and we never hear from them again. Some people just aren't cut our for AP, you are going to have to make a choice about which direction you want to go, if you stick with it by playing this game properly things will work out over the long run. If you have the time and means you should take up Creeping Panther on his invite.

InPlay · Mar 4, 2009

creeping panther said:

Since probally most of us play a standard 6 deck game with no hand shuffle and cards coming from a ASM machine what could you possible do other then pray to disrupt the dealer? I know you probally play mostly 2 deck games but that is not a option for most people. Case in point Monday at 1 table I lost 14 hands in a row playing heads up against the dealer it was the shoe from hell. I decided to move overall only lost $600 at that table since it wasn't going nowhere. Moved to the next table same thing but worst lost $1700 more for a total of $2300 in about 4 1/2 hours of play. Moved to another table in 2 shoes playing heads up I pick up $3900 and walk out a +$1600 for the day. It was just the total opposite winning every hand and the dealer busting. All double downs winning with Max bets outs. Blackjack 3 in a row. Totally unreal. What I am trying to say I guess is I believe in not trying to pound my head up against a wall when it is useless. Find another table rather then go broke and see if the math works. Most people don't have enough money in their pocket to see if the math works. Myself I had been playing at a $50 min table spreading from 2 chips to 12 chips with $7500 on me.

Homeschool · Mar 4, 2009

Just don't forget your safe word. lol

ihate17 · Mar 4, 2009

Unless you suspect cheating, this is voo-doo

I play the game by the math, have done so for such a long period that I think nothing that I experience is really new.
I have had the dealer from hell who stayed that way.
I have had the dealer from hell who instantly changed to the dealer from heaven.
There is just no way of knowing. During one of my best shoes ever I lost my first 3 max bet hands (including a split with 2 double downs) for a total of my first 5 max bets and then went on to win just about every single bet to the end of the shoe.

So if conditions are favorable and you are playing a winning game, I believe you stay and play.

ihate17

winr_winr_chicken_dinner! · Mar 4, 2009

It's a Griswold

Anyone remember the Movie Vegas Vacation? Remember when Chevy Chase just couldn't win against that BJ dealer, Wallace Shawn? Yea, some days it feels just like that...

If your choices are limited, you might have to stick it out. Me personally, if I am playing as an AP and not gambling, I get up and move. There are too many other tables/pits/stores to just sit there and get hammered.

If you've got the bankroll for it and like the punishment, sit there until they add on a new wing of the store with your money...

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