Steering the bust (10) card questions

[RJT]

Okay, now please summarize the one-shot three hand situation for simplified play strategy. zg

That's what i'm saying - there really is no simplified 'one size fits all' strategy here. I don't know how many times i've stated that now. Certainly not one that's been investigated to any great extent. No-one's ever really seen this as a profitable enough play to invest the time in researching the strategy.
For example if you had three hands of 7, 14 and 11 against a dealer 9, by steering the 10 to a double on the 11 you could ensure a +165% EV to the 11, but then you've got to take into account the fact that you are going to take a penelty for standing the 7 and the 14 so that the 10 would be left for the double. I couldn't tell you off hand what the size of the penelties for standing these hands would be but i'm sure someone with BJA will come along soon enough.
There are 2 alternatives to steering it to the double - hitting the 7 or steering to the dealer's first hit. If you hit the 7 - you've got to consider that you are guarenteed to end with a weak hand so take a penelty there but you can play BS for the other 2 hands (although truthfully you don't actually take a penelty as you could consider it as if you just didn't know what the next card was - it's just no the best card to land on a 7). If you steer to the dealer you would gain 20% EV on the 14 but take penelties on the other 2 hands - i don't even have the numbers for the delta EV if you stand a hand less than a 12 to get the 10 to the dealer as no-one i know would ever have stood a hand less than 12.
Unless you are face with 3 stiffs or 2 stiffs and a good double against a weak up card, this simply isn't going to be an easy decision.

RJT.

 

[zengrifter]

That's what i'm saying - there really is no simplified 'one size fits all' strategy here. I don't know how many times i've stated that now. Certainly not one that's been investigated to any great extent. No-one's ever really seen this as a profitable enough play to invest the time in researching the strategy.

Huh? Its the "most powerful play in counting" and not worth the research time? Its just a simulation like BS!

... i'm sure someone with [simulations] will come along soon enough.

Sure, now that I'm asking for it!? zg

"Real men don't use BJ simulators" --Semyon Duchasch
​

 

[RJT]

Huh? Its the "most powerful play in counting" and not worth the research time?

They used it in a totally different fashion to the weak version you want and you know it, so just drop the dumb act.

Its just a simulation like BS!

Well it should be no problem for a self definded "expert-level practioner" like yourself to do then, should it?

"Real men don't use BJ simulators" --Semyon Duchasch
​

Why do you feel the need to make up quotes? You're talking to RJT here, not Semyon and if you have any problems comprehending the simple statements that i've made you can take them up with me rather than tarnish someone else's name.

RJT.

 

[zengrifter]

Why do you feel the need to make up quotes? You're talking to RJT here, not Semyon and if you have any problems comprehending the simple statements that i've made you can take them up with me rather than tarnish someone else's name.

I was just being cute, sorry.

But, regarding Semyon's good name, haven't we concluded that Semyon and Mezrich over grandize the results the method acheieved?

Obviously I am having trouble comprehending the play-strategy for 10-steering.

All I wanted was to make sure I play it right in the rare occurence of my knowing precisely when the ten will appear.

In the past, not knowing the ten-steer bust card power, I would take the ten on my hand for a 13% edge. zg

Ps - RJT, your prescence and participation at BJINFO is much valued.

 

[mdlbj]

Seymon and his crew did not last very long.

 

[RJT]

But, regarding Semyon's good name, haven't we concluded that Semyon and Mezrich over grandize the results the method acheieved?

I'm no defender of Semyon - i would agree that his success has been dramatically exaggerated. However the facts of the matter are only truely known to a select few. Some could be seen to benifit from the exaggeration and others choose to say nothing on the subject for their own reason, leaving the rest of us to draw our own conclusions.

Obviously I am having trouble comprehending the play-strategy for 10-steering.

It's not a case of having trouble, it's just simply more complex than you - or any of us - would like. There are a huge number of variables to consider and each one impacts all of the others and as each time you are faced with this situation you will have different variables it complex on top of complex.
The best think you can do in this situation is be even vaguely familiar with the numbers so you can have at least a rough idea what the impact each play could have.

All I wanted was to make sure I play it right in the rare occurence of my knowing precisely when the ten will appear.

In the past, not knowing the ten-steer bust card power, I would take the ten on my hand for a 13% edge. zg

That's often a very powerful option, but steering it to a double if avalible is probably more powerful - especially if the dealer has a weak up card and is likely to bust - that way you don't take as much of a penelty on hands you don't hit to get the 10 where you want it.
Remember that knowing that a card isn't a 10 is very valuable as well - not doubling when otherwise would is a big gainer.

Ps - RJT, your prescence and participation at BJINFO is much valued.

Appreciated - I've become very cynical since i started posting on this forum and have a tendancy to be more snappy than i should with people i shouldn't be. It's not an aspect of myself i particularly like.

RJT.

 

[zengrifter]

I've become very cynical since i started posting on this forum and have a tendancy to be more snappy than i should with people i shouldn't be. It's not an aspect of myself i particularly like.

We can think of you as a KINDER/GENTLER STALKER! zg

Ps- Can I get a VERY-RUDIMENTARY strategy for when to take the ten and when to deliver it to the dealer? Please.

 

[mdlbj]

Change in Expectation from Giving Card

Maybe this will help ZG. Change in Expectation from Giving Card (Archive copy)

 

[RJT]

I'll make this as simple as i can, but it's not going to be much more than common sense (Basic Strategy) and won't be optimal in every occasion - although should give you the best of it in most situations.
If you have 3 stiffs, give it to the dealer!
If you have a 10 or 11 - steer it to the double.
Otherwise try and get it to your hand for next round.
Now there will be a little bit of change to this. You've got to at least consider the peneltie you are going to take by sending the 10 elsewhere. If you are sending it to a double and the other 2 hands are a 7 and a 5 against a dealer 10, you might want to reconsider etc etc.
As i said, this is far from perfect and a dramatic over simplification of a complex technique.

RJT.

 

[zengrifter]

Maybe this will help ZG. Change in Expectation from Giving Card (Archive copy)

No, not that one. Find some more for this thread. zg

 

[MAZ]

No, not that one. Find some more for this thread. zg

For goodness sake man prove you are worthy of the zen in your name. You have been fed information. Process it, and then understand it. Your incessant whining of give me more is boring. Figure it out. You have been led to the watering hole, either figure out how to drink, or die.

 

[zengrifter]

You have been led to the watering hole, either figure out how to drink, or die.

Figure it out for myself? Excuse me? zg

​

 

[mdlbj]

Really, if you were worthy you would show these kids somthing. I said that this is a " understanding of the game as a whole " Deliver some strategy for them.

Onagashimasu. 3 Months in Tokyo was sweet.

Definition

 

[zengrifter]

Hey hey, I'm the one asking the questions here! zg

 

[GlenRuss]

Hi. I am sort of new here. I would like to know if anyone here has had any success with any of the three "techniques" mentioned in Busting Vegas. I have read the threads and see a lot of discussion on technique but can anyone report their own success or failure in practical application?
(Thank you for any reply)

Glen

 

[The Stork]

Well....

Not many people are devoted to practise those technics. Honestly I am just busy with one of those technics. Ace location in double deck games does barely need a memory. But in shoe games it is a different story. If you are willing to train hard on it. please contact me because I am right now doing the same thing. Buy arnold shuffletrackers cookbook and start there. I am not sure if your girlfriend will like it if you train, but she will like your money you earn with it. :laugh: Having obligations is not so natural, specially when you are devoted to learn something complicated as this is. Like I say...I just try it and see where passion can lead you. That is all what you can ask for in life.

Happy holiday...

Stork

 

[RJT]

Hi. I am sort of new here. I would like to know if anyone here has had any success with any of the three "techniques" mentioned in Busting Vegas. I have read the threads and see a lot of discussion on technique but can anyone report their own success or failure in practical application?
(Thank you for any reply)

Glen

Not specifically those three - a least in live play - but i have had success with others. In practice i can sequence and cut. I've haven't yet found a dealer that was accurate enough for me to try sequencing for real and while i've encountered plenty of situatuions that would be perfect for cutting, 2 things have stopped me - 1) lack of control over the table and 2) lack of enough opportunity to really make it worthwhile putting in the necessary practice.
Even in idealic situations it's hard to disguise cutting or make it a regular enough opportunity to really get the money. Unless you can really bet it up, cut's worth knowing and using when you get a chance, but i wouldn't depend on it.

RJT.

 

[GlenRuss]

Thanks for the replies Stork and RJT. I am considering training in the upcoming new year. I mean really training. I am giving up drinking and have both a gym and a Black jack table set up in my basement/playroom (strong body/strong mind). Oh and Stork my wife is on board (especially w/ the stop drinking part of this). And she has agreed to go on scouting missions w/ me to A.C. (we live upstate N.Y.) She is better at memorizing shuffles than I and I am better at counting. I intend to use a Counting/Tracking Ace technique.
We don't have a large bankroll and minimum betting would make sense to scout out/test our accuracy. What do you guys think of combining counting with tracking?
I guess I am also looking for some encouragement and I will keep practice records, maybe I'll post them if anyone's interested. i figure the worst that can happen is i have a lttle fun that doesn't pay off in real $ and the best that can happen is I buy a nice boat when I retire and maybe even pay the kids college tuition:eyepatch:

Glen

 

[RJT]

Thanks for the replies Stork and RJT. I am considering training in the upcoming new year. I mean really training. I am giving up drinking and have both a gym and a Black jack table set up in my basement/playroom (strong body/strong mind). Oh and Stork my wife is on board (especially w/ the stop drinking part of this). And she has agreed to go on scouting missions w/ me to A.C. (we live upstate N.Y.) She is better at memorizing shuffles than I and I am better at counting. I intend to use a Counting/Tracking Ace technique.
We don't have a large bankroll and minimum betting would make sense to scout out/test our accuracy. What do you guys think of combining counting with tracking?
I guess I am also looking for some encouragement and I will keep practice records, maybe I'll post them if anyone's interested. i figure the worst that can happen is i have a lttle fun that doesn't pay off in real $ and the best that can happen is I buy a nice boat when I retire and maybe even pay the kids college tuition:eyepatch:

Glen

That sounds like a good plan. Combining counting and tracking is the way to go. Keep us up to date with what you are doing and how you're progressing.

RJT.

 

[Brock Windsor]

Hi. I am sort of new here. I would like to know if anyone here has had any success with any of the three "techniques" mentioned in Busting Vegas. I have read the threads and see a lot of discussion on technique but can anyone report their own success or failure in practical application?
(Thank you for any reply)

Glen

For card steering/cutting to an ace, Find a dealer that will let you cut any number of cards off the deck. It makes the technique much simpler and very accurate. Few people can cut 53 cards off of a deck but most can cut 2 cards with perfect accuracy. In my opinion spending time finding favourable playing situations is a valuable use of time as opposed to grinding shoe games all day.
BW