Surrendering - Other Player's Reaction

[bjhack]

Just finished my first "big" BJ session in Vegas - by "big", I mean 25 hours of play over 72 hours, playing BS and flat betting the smallest table minimum I could find in a reasonable 3:2 game (typically $15, but sometimes $25). Beat expectations by not losing money - small profit.

(Paris, H17, DA, DAS, 8 Deck, LS, ASM).

One thing that bemused me was the reaction to surrendering of hands. A lot of "what did you just do?" that was probably received negatively about 70% of the time. (Highlight was one player who played otherwise good BS saying that he loved the idea - playing poker he folded frequently, and thought it could be a good idea. He surrendered a few times after that. As I'm not a poker player, I have no comment on that, other than I can see the analogy).

Another player said that the only reason that the casinos offered surrender was to "interrupt the flow of the cards" (groan). In the hand following that surrender I received an Ace as the first card; I told the player I specifically surrendered the last hand to get the Ace. He made no comment.

Out of curiousity, what are people's experience with regards to surrender (especially at low stakes tables), and how do you handle it?

 

[sagefr0g]

Just finished my first "big" BJ session in Vegas - by "big", I mean 25 hours of play over 72 hours, playing BS and flat betting the smallest table minimum I could find in a reasonable 3:2 game (typically $15, but sometimes $25). Beat expectations by not losing money - small profit.

(Paris, H17, DA, DAS, 8 Deck, LS, ASM).

One thing that bemused me was the reaction to surrendering of hands. A lot of "what did you just do?" that was probably received negatively about 70% of the time. (Highlight was one player who played otherwise good BS saying that he loved the idea - playing poker he folded frequently, and thought it could be a good idea. He surrendered a few times after that. As I'm not a poker player, I have no comment on that, other than I can see the analogy).

Another player said that the only reason that the casinos offered surrender was to "interrupt the flow of the cards" (groan). In the hand following that surrender I received an Ace as the first card; I told the player I specifically surrendered the last hand to get the Ace. He made no comment.

Out of curiousity, what are people's experience with regards to surrender (especially at low stakes tables), and how do you handle it?

i could care less what they say or think.
i think sometimes when they react so much to surrendering is that they haven't even the foggiest what surrender is. in other words they are genuinely suprised at the action. probably didn't even know it was an option.

 

[EasyRhino]

Especially lower limit tables in touristville, probably more confusion than annoyance.

Regardless, the correct answer is always to tell them to blow it out their ass.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Using surrender at my local joint makes me a bit nervous. I rarely observe anyone else doing it... so I fear it makes me stand out. Only designated tables offer it. Seems like a counter trap?

I was playing today, and a ploppy was intrigued by my surrendering... "I didn't know you can do that!" I guess he didn't notice the sign above the table that says "SURRENDER" in big letters.

 

[creeping panther]

BJhack

Surrender gives other players an excuse to blame you for their loses. This is
the one basic strategy move you can use that can make you a very hated player, by the dealer and the other players. Do not doubt that things can get ugly over surrender.

The dealer hates it because it is more work for him, her, they HATE it. I always keep my bets even so as to make it simpler and quicker for the dealer to negotiate.

When other players comment about it just say "It IS basic strategy", say nothing more. It is never smart to get into an argument at the table, let others accost you, and they will, ignore it. I have been savaged at the table over the use of surrender, and I am hated by many ploppys for using it. I have learned over time to just bite my tongue rather than throw down at the BJ table. Although I will target players I do not like, for any reason, and make moves to drive them wild, maybe I will give them a wink, that is all.

Be careful.

CP

 

[blackjack avenger]

Surrender = Money For Casinos, It's Amazing

I always trigger other players starting to surrender at the wrong time. Surrender appears to be a money maker for casinos.

 

[Canceler]

It does me...

Only designated tables offer it.

Does it tick you off that those tables are usually packed with people who don’t know what surrender is, or who proudly proclaim that they never surrender, or who get mad when you surrender?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Does it tick you off that those tables are usually packed with people who don’t know what surrender is, or who proudly proclaim that they never surrender, or who get mad when you surrender?

The poker analogy is a good one. This is how I get the message across:

"What did you do that for? Why did you surrender? That's such a waste."

"No it's not, it's like folding in poker. Don't you ever fold when you play poker?"

"No, I never fold."

"OK, then let's you and me go play some poker."

 

[callipygian]

Using surrender at my local joint makes me a bit nervous. I rarely observe anyone else doing it... so I fear it makes me stand out. Only designated tables offer it. Seems like a counter trap?

The Monte Carlo in Las Vegas used to call out "Surrender!" when you surrendered. Don't know why, and couldn't get a straight answer out of the pit boss. His response was, "We require the dealers to call out any play that is unusual."

 

[Automatic Monkey]

The Monte Carlo in Las Vegas used to call out "Surrender!" when you surrendered. Don't know why, and couldn't get a straight answer out of the pit boss. His response was, "We require the dealers to call out any play that is unusual."

Same way in Northern NV in the few SD games that offer surrender. It's just such a powerful rule I can't pass it up. One reason is that the cameras seeing a dealer pick up a player's cards and then hand him cheques could look like an improper pay because there's no hand signal for surrender out there (only in AZ have I seen a hand signal for surrender) so if the camera sees the PC walk over and monitor the play he knows it's cool.

If you think you might be getting heat for surrendering it might help to learn all the index surrender plays, and risk-averse so you will use them more often. Unlikely anyone in the casino but the AP's knows there is a time to surrender 14 vs. 9.

 

[SleightOfHand]

One reason is that the cameras seeing a dealer pick up a player's cards and then hand him cheques could look like an improper pay because there's no hand signal for surrender out there (only in AZ have I seen a hand signal for surrender)

I haven't been to a casino that offered surrender (yet) but isn't the signal dragging your finger on the felt from left to right (or vice versa)?

 

[ihate17]

Not recognized in Vegas

I haven't been to a casino that offered surrender (yet) but isn't the signal dragging your finger on the felt from left to right (or vice versa)?

The dragging of your finger I believe began as the signal in Asia, but many Vegas casino vets claim that it is hard for the eye in the sky to determine if you are asking for a hit or surrendering if you use this signal. So they do it verbally which can not help the eye at all.
In California, perhaps because of the number of Asian players, the casinos that offer surrender use that signal.

ihate17

 

[ihate17]

Common dealer comment

So many dealers have stated about surrender, "the casino would not put in the rule if it was good for the player"
Does that also mean that other rules such as DAS and RSA are also bad rules because the casino put them it?

I think this comes from several aspects of the dealer mind.
It is hard for a dealer to evaluate the value of surrender because he does know that he will be taking 50% of your chips each time and is incapable of figuring how much more you would lose by hitting or standing.

Dealers are not blackjack experts, they are just deliverers of the next card, so their advice is always suspect.

Dealers do not like surrender because it is extra work.

ihate17

 

[EasyRhino]

In California, perhaps because of the number of Asian players, the casinos that offer surrender use that signal.

In the places in my part of CA a verbal "surrender" usually works.

In Vegas, I noticed some places REQUIRING the gesture, and some places REFUSING the gesture. Very inconsistent.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

The dragging of your finger I believe began as the signal in Asia, but many Vegas casino vets claim that it is hard for the eye in the sky to determine if you are asking for a hit or surrendering if you use this signal. So they do it verbally which can not help the eye at all.
In California, perhaps because of the number of Asian players, the casinos that offer surrender use that signal.

ihate17

I've heard to an Asian player that signal means "Our girls go side to side instead of up and down." :joker:

 

[Mimosine]

In California, perhaps because of the number of Asian players, the casinos that offer surrender use that signal.

ihate17

california is mixed. some places accept the signal, most however do not allow a signal instead require a verbal command. The signal has very often been misinterpreted to mean a hit - as others have noted.

to reiterate others points, most dealers don't understand surrender at all. surrender is actually a gem of an idea for the casino - those that don't take advantage of it add to the house edge, and most of those who do use it use it wrong, like surrender 12 v 7, 15 v 8, or any other go with your guts move....

 

[bjhack]

In the places in my part of CA a verbal "surrender" usually works.

In Vegas, I noticed some places REQUIRING the gesture, and some places REFUSING the gesture. Very inconsistent.

At the Paris I was told by one dealer to use the gesture, and another dealer not to (too much confusion with waving off a card). I guess I'll save any gesturing for ploppies who complain about my surrendering (no, I won't actually try to aggravate the situation).

 

[johndoe]

I prefer the "two hands up" (stickup) gesture (with vocal surrender). It *looks* like a surrender, and usually entertains the table. No ambiguity either.

 

[SecurityRisk]

In Vegas, I noticed some places REQUIRING the gesture, and some places REFUSING the gesture. Very inconsistent.

I've only had one casino in Vegas require that I use the hand signal for surrender. The others I just say "surrender." But one time I was at a casino, and I just said "surrender", and that worked fine. Then another player sits down at the table. He gets a 16 and asks the dealer how he surrenders. The dealer then explained the hand signal to him.

 

[SleightOfHand]

The signal has very often been misinterpreted to mean a hit

I'm not familiar with dealer errors. If you did a surrender sign and the dealer gives you a card misinterpreting it as a hit (assuming you aren't going to point out the error if its a card that actually helps you), will the casino rule in your favor and give you the surrender? I suppose that because of the ruling that dealers are responsible for keeping the cards hidden, its his fault that he didn't recognize the sign, but in case my reasoning is flawed...