The Lure of Hold'Em

[StandardDeviant]

After a year and a half of playing around with BJ I find myself being drawn to poker. I've been reading and playing online, but have not yet set foot in a B&M poker room. That will change soon.

Things I find appealing about poker in my very-much-a-newbie state:

1. No need to run around in the shadows trying to hid from the casino pit boss
2. Less of a need to lie to others about what you are doing
3. The game is more complex, and therefore offers more of a lifetime challenge
4. Mechanical shuffle machines are a virtue, not a vice
5. There are more good books to read
6. There are more opportunities to play given the boom in online sites
7. There are more opportunities for tournaments
8. You can watch it on TV every day (whether you want to is another question)
9. Less starting capital is required to play the game with an advantage
10. Variance is lower for low-stakes players
11. "Surrender" is always offered
12. The probability of winning is, I think, higher if one plays attention to details and really develops the required skills

Let's see where this goes...

 

[21forme]

Reasons why I haven't played Hold'em

I was considering getting into Hold'em last year. I bought several books on it, etc. However, so far, I haven't taken the plunge because:
1. It's boring - if you play correctly, you're folding most of your hands.
2. I don't trust online sites
3. Though safer, there's still the possibility of collusion between players in B&M rooms.
4. I'm doing just fine with my current BJ and occasional other game play.

 

[Machinist]

Don't lower your standards

You will be sadly disappointed at the , what's the word i am looking for.......Hold please i have to google.....:laugh: , quality of human beings????? Now i am not saying all, I am saying a LARGE part of the poker community...
Those TV shows sure make it look fun and glitzy!! It's the power of editing those shows.
Go ahead and try it SD, but it;s all an illusion in those rooms... Makes me almost puke to even look in those rooms now...
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AFTER MANY HOURS OF PLAYING IN ROOMS.
I have had some good times playing poker, but i just can't stomache it anymore..

Machinist

 

[Billy C1]

I plan to play some Hold Em if I ever retire and have the free time. I have a couple friends that play Hold Em tournaments and love it. One of them finished 167th at the Rio (yes the big one) last year.
Even though 167th might not sound like much, he was somewhat elated because of the size and quality of the field playing against him.
SD, what happened to the avatar?

Billy C1

 

[shadroch]

Trouble with poker is it isn't you against the dealer, it's you against everyone else. Sit at the wrong table and you'll be shark bait.

 

[Canceler]

StandardDeviant –

One thing I guarantee you’ll find annoying is the difficulty of separating the luck component from the skill component.

With blackjack it’s easy; you make the correct BS or index play, and lose. Bad luck.

With poker you bet your nice hand, and your opponent happens to make his flush on the river, beating you. Bad luck? Maybe, or was there something you could have done earlier to induce him to fold before making his flush? A few of your losses will be clearly due to bad luck. But for most of them you will have these niggling doubts: Could I have gotten him to fold? Should I have folded earlier? Should I have recognized that my hand was second-best?

 

[1357111317]

Online poker has gotten very tough nowadays. To have a decently hourly winrate you either need to mass multitable or be very skilled. Like other people suggested in other threads tracking software is a must. A couple sites offter 600 100% deposit bonuses right now so I suggest you look into those. There are a couple decent poker players on that site that could probably help you more than me but if you need help beating the microstakes I can help you with that.

 

[StandardDeviant]

I was considering getting into Hold'em last year. I bought several books on it, etc. However, so far, I haven't taken the plunge because:
1. It's boring - if you play correctly, you're folding most of your hands.
2. I don't trust online sites
3. Though safer, there's still the possibility of collusion between players in B&M rooms.
4. I'm doing just fine with my current BJ and occasional other game play.

I'm not sure what to make of the online casinos. My gut tells me that the biggest ones, e.g., PokerStars, Full Tilt, etc. have more to lose from shafting customers than they could hope to gain by running crooked games. But maybe I'm just naive on that.

The bigger issue for me is that online gambling is (or perhaps I should say seems to be) illegal in my state. I'm not ready to risk jail time and fines, even if it's very unlikely that I would be prosecuted.

 

[StandardDeviant]

You will be sadly disappointed at the , what's the word i am looking for.......Hold please i have to google.....:laugh: , quality of human beings????? Now i am not saying all, I am saying a LARGE part of the poker community...
Those TV shows sure make it look fun and glitzy!! It's the power of editing those shows.
Go ahead and try it SD, but it;s all an illusion in those rooms... Makes me almost puke to even look in those rooms now...
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AFTER MANY HOURS OF PLAYING IN ROOMS.
I have had some good times playing poker, but i just can't stomache it anymore..

Machinist

I did walk through one poker room in AC a few weeks back, and I must say that there was quite a slice of humanity in there. I wasn't there long enough to get the full picture, but my initial impressions were not positive. Then again, I would say that about some (many) of the blackjack tables I've seen too.

Just one data point...

I'll be out in Vegas next week, and I intend to peek into some of the rooms there...to get a few more data points. I don't know that I'll play. I'm really not ready yet, and would just get chopped to pieces.

 

[StandardDeviant]

SD, what happened to the avatar?

I took my picture down to stop some of the comments about me.

 

[daddybo]

I took my picture down to stop some of the comments about me.

Try one with big hairy arms... :laugh: (you kept you wit and charm, I hope.)

 

[StandardDeviant]

StandardDeviant –

One thing I guarantee you’ll find annoying is the difficulty of separating the luck component from the skill component.

With blackjack it’s easy; you make the correct BS or index play, and lose. Bad luck.

There certainly is this dynamic, and I don't know how I'll react to it as I've not yet played poker for money. I could imagine poker being more frustrating or less frustrating than BJ.

In the final analysis, frustration exists in the mind of the player, not in the game. And this of course means that I'll be equally frustrated at both

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

In my opinion, poker is much more frustrating because the strategy is less well-defined. You can take a severe ass-beating while counting cards and not worry too much because you know your skill level is adequate for the game you're playing. With poker, there are many more variables at work, and psychology becomes a big factor as well. In my opinion, BJ is much more fun than poker (probably because poker is incredibly boring), but being competent at poker is probably a necessary skill in any AP's toolkit. Playing even a slightly +EV game of poker is a great way to utilize downtime in a casino (unless you like taking naps in the sportsbook) and poker rooms occasionally have valuable promotions that you would be wise to take advantage of.

I will say though that I believe that limit poker is the way to go for blackjack players, as you're dealing with a much clearer strategy and essentially just playing off of odds. With no-limit, you can experience a much higher win rate, but you'll need to become a pretty solid player to make it worth the difference in WR from limit poker.

 

[FLASH1296]

Don't play Texas Hold Em.

Learn to play Pot Limit Omaha and Pot Limit Omaha/8

MUCH better games.

Far more complex - leading to increased chances for skill to dominatew luck.

 

[1357111317]

The variance in those games is much higher though, due to the fact that you are rarely ever drawing dead.

 

[Thunder]

Forget about it

SD, forget about playing NL Texas Hold 'em. For starters before you even play in the casinos, you should have lots of experience under your belt and it's hard to gain the required experience now without suffering a big hit to your bankroll. A few years ago, you didn't have to be that good to rake in the money. Now, it's a much different game. Secondly, you need tons of patience to play this game. The last time I went, I kid you not, I did not have a single winning hand in 3 hours (Really bad run of cards) To be successful, you shouldn't play more than 25% of your hands at a 10 player table. In one hour, you might play oh about 5 decent hands. It is by far, more boring than BJ. Every once in a while, you'll win a decent sized pot but I'd describe the win as something akin to when you split to 3 hands and win them all. Few and far between. It's a major grind to say the least usually. I'd focus your time and energy as Flash said on a different game like Omaha as you're really late to the game.

 

[Machinist]

Wow in 3 hours

SD, forget about playing NL Texas Hold 'em. For starters before you even play in the casinos, you should have lots of experience under your belt and it's hard to gain the required experience now without suffering a big hit to your bankroll. A few years ago, you didn't have to be that good to rake in the money. Now, it's a much different game. Secondly, you need tons of patience to play this game. The last time I went, I kid you not, I did not have a single winning hand in 3 hours (Really bad run of cards) To be successful, you shouldn't play more than 25% of your hands at a 10 player table. In one hour, you might play oh about 5 decent hands. It is by far, more boring than BJ. Every once in a while, you'll win a decent sized pot but I'd describe the win as something akin to when you split to 3 hands and win them all. Few and far between. It's a major grind to say the least usually. I'd focus your time and energy as Flash said on a different game like Omaha as you're really late to the game.

That would be like ........... oh say MAYBE!!!!!! 80 hands OMG!!!!!!! LMAO:laugh::laugh:
Thunder and Flash are right 100%..... OMAHA is where its at, especiallly the pot limit.. My favorite if i must play is Omaha HI-LO split 8 or better... A very nice confusing game for the newby..... I have paid my dues to learn that game!!!!!!!!
Stick with BJ, you will be sadly dissappointed in Poker after understanding BJ...


Machinist

 

[moo321]

Poker is fantastic, and I recommend it to any counters. Read 3 books and you can grind $10/hr out of a low-limit game. Get good and you can make more. Variance is lower, too. No heat.

Only downsides:

1. Much worse comps
2. Harder to play above the 2-5NL/20-40 Limit level (pros start showing up at those levels).

It's a great way to get some EV when you're sick of blackjack, or the heat is coming down and you want to hide.

I recommend playing blackjack during off-peak hours (mornings) and play poker during peak hours (nights/weekends).

You'd be amazed at how horrible people are at poker.

 

[DrEntropy]

As others have said, poker can be more frustrating, because you will question yourself when you get beat and not really be sure you don't have a ton of leaks in your game. With blackjack, this is less a factor, because you KNOW you played it right, even when you lose. You can never be sure in poker. But on the other hand, this is part of why poker is fun...

My recommendation: Start with limit. Read "Small Stakes Hold'em" by Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth. Play at small stakes to start with, but at the high as you feel comfortable. 3/6 or 2/4 is ok to start, but the rake is going to be tough to beat at those levels.

PS: I am coming from the other directions (I play poker, but know I am learning AP blackjack).

 

[moo321]

As others have said, poker can be more frustrating, because you will question yourself when you get beat and not really be sure you don't have a ton of leaks in your game. With blackjack, this is less a factor, because you KNOW you played it right, even when you lose. You can never be sure in poker. But on the other hand, this is part of why poker is fun...

My recommendation: Start with limit. Read "Small Stakes Hold'em" by Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth. Play at small stakes to start with, but at the high as you feel comfortable. 3/6 or 2/4 is ok to start, but the rake is going to be tough to beat at those levels.

PS: I am coming from the other directions (I play poker, but know I am learning AP blackjack).

Yeah, I'd say anyone who reads a book or two should be able to beat a $3-6 game, or you're not playing at the right place. When I play low-limit I'm looking for 7-8 players seeing every flop, and 2-4 callers to the river.