two aces

R

rrwoods

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
BS obviously says to split. But what if I can't? Somehow I've miraculously gotten 4 hands of aces and I can't split anymore, or maybe the casino doesn't allow more than one split but does allow hits (and doubles) to split aces.

Double vs 6? Double vs 5-6? Just hit? I've never seen any advice on what to do here. For all the other pairs you can just look at the other part of the BS table, but there's never an entry for "soft 12".
 
B

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
rrwoods said:
BS obviously says to split. But what if I can't? Somehow I've miraculously gotten 4 hands of aces and I can't split anymore, or maybe the casino doesn't allow more than one split but does allow hits (and doubles) to split aces.

Double vs 6? Double vs 5-6? Just hit? I've never seen any advice on what to do here. For all the other pairs you can just look at the other part of the BS table, but there's never an entry for "soft 12".
Click to expand...
I would guess double vs 5-6, I don't see how the prospects on that could be terribly different than with soft 13.
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#3
#3
Blue Efficacy said:
I would guess double vs 5-6, I don't see how the prospects on that could be terribly different than with soft 13.
Click to expand...
I say hit. Doubling A2 vs. 5 in a S17 game is the closest play in blackjack. But double if you can only double and not just hit.
 
R

rrwoods

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Hmm... maybe someone can run some sims on this?

Also, on another basic strategy note -- *Most* basic strategy tables have "stand vs everything" for hard 17 and higher. But some of them have "Surrender or stand" for 17 vs ace. Are there any tables that have "Surrender or stand" for 18+ vs Ace? I ask because every table I've ever seen just omits the rows for 18-21; I assume that it's because you always stand, but I want to be absolutely sure.
 
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ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
18 vs Ace

rrwoods said:
Hmm... maybe someone can run some sims on this?

Also, on another basic strategy note -- *Most* basic strategy tables have "stand vs everything" for hard 17 and higher. But some of them have "Surrender or stand" for 17 vs ace. Are there any tables that have "Surrender or stand" for 18+ vs Ace? I ask because every table I've ever seen just omits the rows for 18-21; I assume that it's because you always stand, but I want to be absolutely sure.
Click to expand...

I do not have the tables in front of me but the reasoning why you never surrender 18vsAce is that even though you are an underdog on the hand your loss is less than the 50% you lose when surrendering.

ihate17
 
jimbiggs

jimbiggs

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
Usually, you only get one card on split aces. Therefore, no double down would be allowed after splitting. Maybe I didn't read the original post very well.
 
C

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
jimbiggs said:
Usually, you only get one card on split aces. Therefore, no double down would be allowed after splitting.
Click to expand...
This. You also have no choice to hit or stand.

But let's say you just don't have enough money to resplit.

Code: 
Dlr	Dble	Hit	Std
10	-0.51	-0.07	-0.54
9	-0.46	+0.00	-0.54
8	-0.31	+0.10	-0.51
7	-0.18	+0.17	-0.48
6	+0.20	+0.19	-0.12
5	+0.13	+0.16	-0.16
4	+0.06	+0.13	-0.21
3	+0.00	+0.10	-0.25
2	-0.07	+0.08	-0.29
1	-0.59	-0.06	-0.60
Edit: infinite deck, H17
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
edit: this is for doubling, splitting or hitting after spliting aces???
hows about s17? just curious sir.
callipygian said:
This. You also have no choice to hit or stand.

But let's say you just don't have enough money to resplit.

Code: 
Dlr	Dble	Hit	Std
10	-0.51	-0.07	-0.54
9	-0.46	+0.00	-0.54
8	-0.31	+0.10	-0.51
7	-0.18	+0.17	-0.48
6	+0.20	+0.19	-0.12
5	+0.13	+0.16	-0.16
4	+0.06	+0.13	-0.21
3	+0.00	+0.10	-0.25
2	-0.07	+0.08	-0.29
1	-0.59	-0.06	-0.60
Edit: infinite deck, H17
Click to expand...
 
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C

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
sagefr0g said:
edit: this is for doubling, splitting or hitting after spliting aces???
Click to expand...
No, those are the tables for soft 12.

infinite deck, S17:

Code: 
Dlr	Std	Dbl	Hit
10	-0.54	-0.51	-0.07
9	-0.54	-0.46	0.00
8	-0.51	-0.31	+0.10
7	-0.48	-0.18	+0.17
6	-0.15	+0.18	+0.19
5	-0.17	+0.13	+0.16
4	-0.21	+0.06	+0.13
3	-0.25	-0.01	+0.10
2	-0.29	-0.07	+0.08
1	-0.67	-0.62	-0.02
 
R

rrwoods

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Thanks for those tables.

I understand that almost every casino doesn't let you hit to split aces, but I'm sure *some* of them do, and given that I'm writing software that allows you to turn that rule on, I want to know what the right decision is if that situation does arise.
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
Many casinos allow respliting aces

Many casinos allow respliting aces on 6 deck games and some even do this on double deck games but none that I know of allow you to get more than one card on each ace (unless that card is an ace and then no more than a total of 4 hands). So, perhaps the weirdest hand I have had in blackjack was on a six deck game in Vegas a few years back. I received 7 straight aces, followed by a 5. That left me with 4 hands, AA, AA, AA, A5, or as I like to say, four hands that added up to a total of 12. A dealer bust made the result nice and not a total waste of 7 aces.

So since there may be only one or two casinos in the world or so that let you take a third card on split aces, set up your program to allow splitting up to a total of 4 hands but one card on each.

ihate17
 
R

rrwoods

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
ihate17 said:
one or two casinos in the world
Click to expand...
I didn't think the number would be THAT low :p But alright. Right now under the rules menu I have "Ace pairs" which has options for "One card each", "Resplit allowed", and "Any action allowed", as well as a "Number of splits" option. If "Any action allowed" is as rare as you say it is, I may just remove that option altogether.
 
F

Frankie

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
The only place I have seen where you can hit or double after splitting Aces is in Europe or Asia, and it is always accompanied by other rules which make the game basically unplayable. Among them is always the rule that you can only double 9, 10, 11 -- so the point is moot anyway.
 
S

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
rrwoods said:
Thanks for those tables.

I understand that almost every casino doesn't let you hit to split aces, but I'm sure *some* of them do, and given that I'm writing software that allows you to turn that rule on, I want to know what the right decision is if that situation does arise.
Click to expand...
The reason casinos don't let you hit and double split aces is because the player would receive a .39% advantage in a 6D game. I'm sure there is not a casino in North America which allows it. So I wouldn't bother adding it with the software but if your software also includes SP21 and SF21 then I would do it. There are a few casinos in NA which do allow you to double down on split aces however hitting is not an option.
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
As has been pointed out above A2 vs. 5 is the closest play in BJ

As that is so, the A-A doubled would be a positive equity play since the
player picks up a lot when he is hit with a NINE (9), that no longer "breaks"
but instead creates a hand of 21, turning a losing hand to an almost certain
winner. That is a big "swing"

Thus I conclude that if doubling A2 vs. 5 is a borderline play, then doubling Ace- Ace MUST be more profitable.
A2 vs 5 [doubled] has a microscopic profit potential (while doubling the money at risk).
Does the increased profit potential outweigh the increment in risk created by doubling the money at stake ?
 
ChefJJ

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
FLASH1296 said:
Thus I conclude that if doubling A2 vs. 5 is a borderline play, then doubling Ace- Ace MUST be more profitable.
Click to expand...
Please elaborate, FLASH. Just want to know...not trying to challenge you here.

Hope you got my PM. good luck
 
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