Two Major Obstacles to Counting w/out Wonging

[wvbjplayer]

It has occurred to me that two major obstacles confront the card counter who, for whatever reason(s), does not wish to wong in and out of games (i.e., leave the table when the count turns negative and return, or sit down at another, when the count turns positive). These are two obstalces beyond the obvious: such a player will be forced to weather even horribly negative counts where he is certain to lose his shirt. They are as follows:

1. PISSING OFF EVERYONE AT THE TABLE BY VARYING YOUR PLAY. Unless you're lucky enough to play head-to-head w/ the dealer for long stretches, you're almost certain to elicit at least disapproving stares and more likely angry comments from the other players by suddenly altering your strategy when, unbeknownst to at least most of them, the count drops. For example, if you know the count has plunged to, say, -17, and therefore choose to stand on 16 against a dealer's 7, 8, 9, or 10, everyone at the table will inevitably pounce on you and scold you for playing inconsistently with basic strategy (unfortunately fairly well known to most players). You might be able to get away with excuses like "Sorry, but I'm tired of busting" the first couple times, but if you keep it up long enough, eventually you'll incite a revolt and the playing conditions will become so poor (quite apart from any guilt or discomfort you might feel) that even a counter of the stoniest temperament will be forced to flee. If nothing else, it will become too difficult to concentrate on the count while fending off the verbal assaults.

2. DRAWING HEAT FROM THE HOUSE. The surest way to raise eyebrows in the pit, maybe other than by wildly varying your bets, is to abruptly modify your play. Why would somebody go from consistently hitting on 15's & 16's against dealer face cards to consistently standing on them, unless he were counting?

I welcome feedback from anyone who's devised successful solutions to either of these problems.

wvbjplayer

 

[Ferretnparrot]

Apply your skepticicsm when you confront a play you knoaw in the future you may make a change in, as in everytime you get 15 or 16, say that next time you wont be so lucky to draw that 5 or 6, or if you bust, next time your not going to draw, just be random about it as if you have no plan at all. And be quick to make the play, if your quick and ask for another card on 12 or 13, you might be able to pull it off liek you hit by accident, in which case they might go easy on you.

When it comes to people getting angry at you if they give you crap politely tell them that its your hand and youll play it how ever you like. They might give you the evil eye but who cares, they are the stupid ones no you.
When you piss peopel off enough to leave the table and your in a high count, you just scored yourself some extra EV

Ferret

 

[golfnut101]

2. DRAWING HEAT FROM THE HOUSE. The surest way to raise eyebrows in the pit, maybe other than by wildly varying your bets, is to abruptly modify your play. Why would somebody go from consistently hitting on 15's & 16's against dealer face cards to consistently standing on them, unless he were counting?

Depending on your EV, standing on 16v10 is minimal regardless of count.
Same as 12v3. More important for the non-advanced ap is penetration. The one condition that all others hinge on. Not trying to be rude, but, I thought you we're done? Maybe I have wrong guy; it sucks getting old...

 

[Canceler]

Starting to see your problem...

For example, if you know the count has plunged to, say, -17, and therefore choose to stand on 16 against a dealer's 7, 8, 9, or 10...

If the count is way negative, and I'm therefore expecting low cards, why would I stand?

 

[EasyRhino]

Those would be "minor" obstacles.

Look at it at a more basic level. Consider this a business. The whole point of playing is to find high counts at which to bet lots of money. This is your revenues. Any bets placed at negative counts are your expenses. An ideal world has you placing bets only in positive counts.

Any play in negative counts should be considered an expense, and should be justified. Here are some GOOD reasons why wonging might not be possible:

1) Can't sit down (full table)
2) Can't sit down (no mid-shoe entry)
3) Too obvious at backcounting
4) Trying to hustle comps
5) Are in a wheelchair

Pissing off players isn't a big deal. I'm usually fairly polite at the tables, but you know what? If they got a problem, they can F themselves right in the ear.

For example, if you know the count has plunged to, say, -17, and therefore choose to stand on 16 against a dealer's 7, 8, 9, or 10,

This would seem to be a profoundly wrong play.

 

[wvbjplayer]

If the count is way negative, and I'm therefore expecting low cards, why would I stand?

My bad. Reverse that: if the count is really high (say, +17).

wvbjplayer

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...
Pissing off players isn't a big deal. I'm usually fairly polite at the tables, but you know what? If they got a problem, they can F themselves right in the ear....

That's the spirit. I don't go out of my way to antagonize other players without a reason, but if other players complain I just shrug and tell them I didn't think it would make a difference. If they continue, I tell them it's my F money and I'll play any way I want to. There really isn't any choice. Confrontations are an occupational hazard of AP.

 

[blackchipjim]

camo baby camo baby

If you are older looking get a couple of old hearing aids and ignore the **** out of everyone. You can also act drunk and ignore everyone even the pit that's a good one for you younger gentlemen. I've seen a young counter pull some adaucious **** at the table and get away with it because of the drunk act. I knew he wasn't because he acted perfectly fine later in another area of the casino. blackchipjim

 

[Sonny]

1. PISSING OFF EVERYONE AT THE TABLE BY VARYING YOUR PLAY. Unless you're lucky enough to play head-to-head w/ the dealer for long stretches, you're almost certain to elicit at least disapproving stares and more likely angry comments from the other players by suddenly altering your strategy when, unbeknownst to at least most of them, the count drops.

I’ve found that ploppies tend to complain even when you play properly. Plays like hitting A,7 or hitting 12 vs. 2 or 3 always seem to get them going. Sometimes splitting 9,9 pisses them off too even though it is the right thing to do. Ploppies are going to complain no matter what you do. They’re mad because they’re losing, not because of you. They’re just taking it out on you because they don’t want to blame themselves for their misery. Don’t sabotage your own play just to make them happy. They’ll yell at you either way so you might as well be making some money when they do.

2. DRAWING HEAT FROM THE HOUSE…Why would somebody go from consistently hitting on 15's & 16's against dealer face cards to consistently standing on them, unless he were counting?

Because he’s superstitious. Sometimes using index plays can make you fit in with the ploppies. Plays like hitting 9 vs. 3 and 4 in negative counts can take the heat off if you play the part. Besides, you're giving way too much credit to the pit bosses. Most floormen don’t know any index plays anyway so they have trouble fingering a card counter just by his playing deviations. They might know that a card counter will take insurance when he has a big bet up, or that he will stand more and double more in high counts, but they don’t know any of the actual numbers. Use that to your advantage.

Basically, just play the strongest game you can and keep you’re eye open for heat. You’ll often be surprised when it never comes.

-Sonny-

 

[InPlay]

I’ve found that ploppies tend to complain even when you play properly. Plays like hitting A,7 or hitting 12 vs. 2 or 3 always seem to get them going. Sometimes splitting 9,9 pisses them off too even though it is the right thing to do. Ploppies are going to complain no matter what you do. They’re mad because they’re losing, not because of you. They’re just taking it out on you because they don’t want to blame themselves for their misery. Don’t sabotage your own play just to make them happy. They’ll yell at you either way so you might as well be making some money when they do.



Because he’s superstitious. Sometimes using index plays can make you fit in with the ploppies. Plays like hitting 9 vs. 3 and 4 in negative counts can take the heat off if you play the part. Besides, you're giving way too much credit to the pit bosses. Most floormen don’t know any index plays anyway so they have trouble fingering a card counter just by his playing deviations. They might know that a card counter will take insurance when he has a big bet up, or that he will stand more and double more in high counts, but they don’t know any of the actual numbers. Use that to your advantage.

Basically, just play the strongest game you can and keep you’re eye open for heat. You’ll often be surprised when it never comes.

-Sonny-

I thought you only take insurance when the count warrants it not the size of the bet ?

 

[Sonny]

I thought you only take insurance when the count warrants it not the size of the bet ?

That's true, but it's also an easy way to spot a card counter. When the count gets high, he raises his bet. When he raises his bet, he starts taking insurance. It's one of the things that pit bosses look for even when they don't actually knowing what they're doing. :grin:

-Sonny-

 

[sagefr0g]

I thought you only take insurance when the count warrants it not the size of the bet ?

there is a school of thought that supports taking it when you have a big bet out. can't remmember what the reasoning was though.....
but it would make sense however since when a big bet is out heck that's when the true is likely to be >=3 lol.....
but the reasoning was something other than the importance of the true count.

 

[Knox]

The main ploppy thought I observe about insurance is to insure a good hand. Recently I was playing and the dealer even thought that was the way to do it!

 

[sagefr0g]

The main ploppy thought I observe about insurance is to insure a good hand. Recently I was playing and the dealer even thought that was the way to do it!

i got to do the ole take insurance and lose that bet then turn around and surrender thing the other day lol. thats always fun. but supposedly it can be a give away play for survelance suspecting a counter

 

[Knox]

Is this thread misnamed? Didn't it start out talking about obstacles to wonging? Why does it say w/out wonging? I'd say its much easier to play without wonging, for the reasons mentioned, just not as profitable.

Frog: The dealer was even prompting me to check both hands in a face down DD game. I like that since I get maximum information about the count. Maybe I can even get the other players at the table to show me their cards too before making a decision, or would that be pushing it to far?!?

 

[InPlay]

That's true, but it's also an easy way to spot a card counter. When the count gets high, he raises his bet. When he raises his bet, he starts taking insurance. It's one of the things that pit bosses look for even when they don't actually knowing what they're doing. :grin:

-Sonny-

You can still raise you bet without hitting a insurance count. I use KISS III. The max bet for me is 10 units at a count of 23. Insurance does not come into play until a count of 25. My thoughts are if you insured a bet based on the amount you would defeat the purpose of a insurance count. Thinking along these lines you would have to set a amount wheter to insure or not. No insurance for hands say $500 or under insurance for $500 and over.

 

[moo321]

Back to the original question, my answer is: Don't play without wonging!

 

[Persnickety1]

Back to the original question, my answer is: Don't play without wonging!

It has occurred to me that two major obstacles confront the card counter who, for whatever reason(s), does not wish to wong in and out of games (i.e., leave the table when the count turns negative and return, or sit down at another, when the count turns positive). These are two obstalces beyond the obvious: such a player will be forced to weather even horribly negative counts where he is certain to lose his shirt.

During negative counts you bet small, therefore you lose small. You tend to not double-down as much, and you are not likely to bust as often.

Shirts are not lost during horribly negative counts, the loss is pretty much negligible if you have a sound betting strategy and a decent bankroll.

Shirts are lost durring "horribly" positive counts when people over-bet their bankroll thinking they can't lose.

The margins are so thin even when you do have the advantage.

 

[zengrifter]

1. PISSING OFF EVERYONE AT THE TABLE BY VARYING YOUR PLAY.

Varying the bet, #hands, etc. Its GOOD to piss everyone off, they'll tend to LEAVE. zg

Ps - I've often left the table and then return at the beginning and another player will say, "We got creamed while you were gone." I tell'em all, "Next time if everyone wants me to stay you'll all have to pay me." Some players really go nutzo if you drop in and out of the game, skipping rounds and then changing the number of hands. Do it!