Use of matchplay coupons with blackjack

[dueceswild]

Several of the area casinos where I live offer daily matchplay coupons to their customers. I visit these casinos on a daily basis and use these coupons at the blackjack table. A friend has told me that I should vary from basic strategy when using these coupons, mainly by standing on a few totals that I would normally hit (say 16 vs 10). His logic is that it becomes correct to risk busting less often when any win will pay you 2 to 1 (with the coupon in play). Is there a mathematical basis to his argument? If so, can someone suggest a modified basic strategy chart to be used when playing matchplays. Thanks.

 

[Sonny]

There is a modified basic strategy based on the use of matchplay coupons. It can be found here:

http://www.beyondcounting.com/pdfs/beyondcouponsbjfo.pdf (Archive copy)

-Sonny-

 

[Cardcounter]

Standing on 16 vs a 10 when you have a matchplay is a good play because it is so close anyway. That when you have 5/4/7 vs a 10 it is correct to stand
so I can imagine that it would be correct to stand on 10/6 vs a 10 with a matchplay. Splits would be more interesting with matchplays though especially if on one hand you can just put up the $10 and not $10 and a $10 matchplay. I would imagine that you would split small pairs even more. You would probably split 6's and 7's vs everything once than revert back to basic stragedy. Example you have 7,7 vs a 9 you split with a matchplay giving you $10 bet with a $10 matchplay on one hand and just a $10 bet on the other hand with no matchplay. When you draw if you draw another 7 on your matchplay hand you split again but if you get another 7 on your non matchplay hand you just hit. These kind of variations might be interesting.

P.S. The best bet for a matchplay hand is the players bet in bacaret assuming it is an even money matchplay.

 

[moo321]

Baccarat and craps are better for even-money matchplays. If you are not restricted to even money, then bet numbers in roulette, or sucker bets, such as the field in craps, the pairs plus or a side bet on blackjack (21+3, lucky ladies, etc.)

 

[dueceswild]

I am in Washington. The area casinos that offer matchplays are "mini" casinos. They do not have craps, roullete, etc. The coupons are good only on even money bets, and no minis around here allow matchplays at the baccarat table. A few places have 3 card poker, which looks like my best bet according to the above link. I've never played the game though so I didn't exactly follow the strategy outlined in the article. Mainly I want to make sure I'm at least optimizing my play with the coupons at the blackjack table, even if I could be doing better with them at another game.

Currently, there are $155-$180 in matchplays available everyday at these casinos, so even with a roi of $4.71 on a $10 matchplay I'm looking at a profit of $73-$84 a day just by spending an hour or two driving to some area casinos.

 

[shadroch]

Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[moo321]

I am in Washington. The area casinos that offer matchplays are "mini" casinos. They do not have craps, roullete, etc. The coupons are good only on even money bets, and no minis around here allow matchplays at the baccarat table. A few places have 3 card poker, which looks like my best bet according to the above link. I've never played the game though so I didn't exactly follow the strategy outlined in the article. Mainly I want to make sure I'm at least optimizing my play with the coupons at the blackjack table, even if I could be doing better with them at another game.

Currently, there are $155-$180 in matchplays available everyday at these casinos, so even with a roi of $4.71 on a $10 matchplay I'm looking at a profit of $73-$84 a day just by spending an hour or two driving to some area casinos.

See if you can play the pairplus on three card poker.

 

[lucifer]

Can you explain to me, when using even money bets only, why player in bacc and the field bet in craps are better than bj. In laymans terms. that article fried my brain.also, are they assuming that if 12 hits on the field that i will get 3 to 1 on my money and 3 to 1 on the coupon. they only pay 3 to 1 on your money and even on the coupon.

 

[FLASH1296]

They do NOT pay 3 TO 1 on 12 in the "field"
I guarantee that they pay 2 TO 1 -- which is
sometimes expressed as 3 FOR 1.[

Basically the longer the payoff odds you can get the better.
Every casino that I have ever used match play coupons in
restricted the coupons to "even money" bets only.

 

[lucifer]

I hate to break the news to you but its 2 to1 on 2 and 3 to 1 on 12. i know the difference betwen the 2. trust me. some places are 2 to 1 on 2 and 12.i will bet you a 50.00 comp that im right.Most casinos that say even money bets will let you bet on the field since its even money on all numbers except 2 or 12. the question i have is , when JG says that the field has a ev of 5.00 is he assuming that you get paid 3 to 1 or 2 to1 on the coupon also. that wouldnt seem right.

 

[FLASH1296]

I have actually heard rumors of that payoff existing somewhere and sometime, but have never seen it.

I always assumed that such tales were apocryphal. Not that they make the "Field Bet" acceptable.

 

[lucifer]

it doesnt even say 3 to 1. it says "pays triple"

 

[FLASH1296]

I have played in casinos from Nevada to New York and from Canada to Florida - but I have never played in a casino in California or Washington or Oregon.

After decades of haunting casinos I had never seen that payout on a Craps Table.

That is all that I am saying.

 

[moo321]

Can you explain to me, when using even money bets only, why player in bacc and the field bet in craps are better than bj. In laymans terms. that article fried my brain.also, are they assuming that if 12 hits on the field that i will get 3 to 1 on my money and 3 to 1 on the coupon. they only pay 3 to 1 on your money and even on the coupon.

Well, it has to do with the fact that you lose the coupon when you win. Let me give you an example, using a $38 matchplay coupon.

Bet $1 on all 38 numbers in roulette, one of them hits for a 35 to 1 payout. Net result: $35

Bet $38 on a coin flip with no house advantage. Win $38 half the time. Net result: $19.

Grosjean compares it to stock options, where variance is good. If you have an option, but not an obligation, to buy or sell at a certain price, you want the price to fluctuate wildly, so that at some point it will end up above or below your option price.

 

[ChefJJ]

it doesnt even say 3 to 1. it says "pays triple"

You are absolutely correct. Just as the more-common 2 to 1 says "pays double".

Back to the point of the existence of the 3x payoff for either the 2 or 12 in the Field, it's been a while since I've found one of those babies...but I swear the last joint I saw one was Tahoe I think. I'll be at the Lake in July...I'll keep my eyes open


FLASH - You are right about the the Field being a crummy bet, but finding the 3X variety is the craps equivalent of the Single Zero roulette wheel...it cuts the bet's edge in half.

good luck

 

[lucifer]

it is a bad bet no matter what. who cares if it pays triple. go to circus circus. 3 to 1 on 12. knock yourself out. you will be broke in no time.

 

[FLASH1296]

Field Bet - House Edge.

If the Field Bet paid only even money on all of the winning numbers it would have 20 losers and 16 winners. Odds of 5 to 4.

If you bet a total of $9, on average, you will get back $8 for a loss of $1.

That equates to -11.1%

With the double odds payoff on 2 and 12 that rises to 18 to 20. Odds of 10 to 9.

If you bet a total of $20, on average, you will get back $18 for a loss of $2.

That equates to -10%

If either the 2 or the 12 pay triple that makes the odds 19 to 20.

If you bet a total of $39, on average, you will get back $38 for a loss of $2.
That equates to -5.1%

A 5.1% edge to the house is absurdly ruinous; as it is approx. triple the vig' on a pass-line bet or placing the 6 or 8 which are 1.4% and 1.5% respectively.

 

[ChefJJ]

FLASH,

Definitely not going to refute your bottom line that the Field bet is brutal to begin with, but something isn't quite jiving with your edges. I've calced the standard payout Field to be 5.6%, while the Triple one is cut to 2.8% (yes, still very crummy considering the multitude of wagers on the layout). But I do agree with you in principle.

Think about this as well: the house edge on the Place 6 & 8 wagers COMBINED is down to just over 1%. Now that's solid.

good luck

 

[FLASH1296]

You said:

"the house edge on the Place 6 & 8 wagers COMBINED is down to just over 1%"


Please show us how you arrive at your figure of > 1%.

I suspect that you have made a serious error in computation.

Note: No combination of bets can reduce the overall odds on the money wagered.

 

[ChefJJ]

Computation

Place 6: pays $6 for each $5 wagered ($1.20 per $1.00)
5 ways to win, 6 ways to lose

Place 8: pays $6 for each $5 wagered ($1.20 per $1.00)
5 ways to win, 6 ways to lose


For a player making both wagers simultaneously (e.g. $6 on each), the following is true:

$12 ($Loss) at risk for the roll of a 7...6 ways to roll (#Loss).
$7 ($Win) to win for the roll of either a 6 or 8...10 ways to roll (#Win).
Push on the roll of a 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11 & 12...20 ways to roll (inconsequential).


House edge calculation:

[($Win/$Loss)*(#Win/Total#)] - (#Loss/Total#)

[(7/12)*(10/16)] - (6/16) = [0.5833 * 0.6250] - 0.3750 = -0.0104

-1.04%