Very annoying people - How to handle?

[fsscout]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I was trying to point out that two many people think 3rd base is the best place to sit and explain why I like first base and the advantages it offers. 3rd base has it advantages also especially if you know exactly when to deviate from basic strategy. I didn't contradict my self. I said I prefer first base & explained why. but I will sit anywhere when 1st base isn't available. Each seat has it's advantages and disadvantages, so seat position should be based on your philosophy and style of play. I was just trying to point out to the player who had the problem with being harrassed, I got the impression he preferred 3rd base. that 1st base was probably a better choice for him, it shouldn't effect his win rate and he will get less harrassment from other players. I will admit that I don't like the middle seats because you have to keep turning your head to see all the cards and this could tip off the casino that you are a counter.

Glad I'm not sitting next to you at a table, sounds like you are one of those nitpicking players who is quick to criticize and the kind of people the original poster is trying to avoid.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

I live in Las Vegas and have been counting cards for years and I consistantly win. I am a low stakes player, my max bet is $40. I realize that many "so called" experts say 3rd base is the best place to play because it allows you to see more cards and thus you can adjust your play accordingly. I prefer first base. My reasoning is that when the count is in my favor I have a better chance of getting good cards, especially when there are a lot of aces left, than sitting at 3rd base when several cards are dealt out and the count may significantly change before you get your first card and especially your second card.

Also everybody is watching the play of the guy at 3rd base and thus he is blamed when the cards don't fall just right. The guy at first base doesn't usually get this kind of crap from the other players. Of course these players are idiots. I don't blame anyone when I lose a hand. In the long run when there is a bad player at 3rd base his bad play helps you as often as it hurts you. We only remember the times when it hurts you. If you are a good counter then you know that there are a few times when you shouldn't
make the obvious basic strategy play. So expect the heat from the other players when you make those plays and they lose.

If you are thin skinned and don't like the comments from the knuckleheaded majority then sit as close to 1st base as possible. Real experts know that it doesn't really matter where you sit if you truly know how to count cards.

Sorry, but you are guilty of bad reasoning.

When the round begins, you're just as likely to get the good cards sitting at third as you are at first. If the running count is +10, there are ten extra high cards distributed throughout the whole remaining pack. Those high cards could be anywhere, they could give first base a 20 or BJ, the dealer a 20 or BJ, third base a 20 or BJ, or 20's and BJ for all. Or 20 and BJ for none as they are all behind the cut card, never to be seen.

There are benefits to sitting at first base, I am not arguing that there are not reasons to sit there. However, the reason you mentioned is certainly not one of them. The count "changing" by the time the dealer gets to the last spot does nothing to the probabilities of getting high cards when you placed your bet. Besides, there are times the count will climb further, would you rather be the benefit of that at third base, or eat the little cards at first? It's a wash, no spot gets better cards than the others.

I will always go for third base at a full table at a deeply dealt double deck game, the index plays allowed, especially on the last round have saved me countless bets. It has also gotten me flak from ploppies for taking hits that are considered "unorthodox," but I really don't care. I just give a dopey smile and say "should I not have done that?" when I cause the table to lose and am questioned.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...I will always go for third base at a full table at a deeply dealt double deck game, the index plays allowed, especially on the last round have saved me countless bets. It has also gotten me flak from ploppies for taking hits that are considered "unorthodox," but I really don't care. I just give a dopey smile and say "should I not have done that?" when I cause the table to lose and am questioned.

My choice is the second to last spot. The reason is in a face-down game you can usually see the cards of the person on the left, gives you slightly more playing information on the average.

 

[fsscout]

You are right in terms of overal probability. I just like the idea of knowing the chances, as close to possible, of getting a good card as opposed to having the odds possible change by sitting at 3rd base. Granted the odds could improve. Thats just my preference and I should have explained it better. You explanation was very good. I simply was trying to help the thin skinned player and explain to him that sitting at 1st base would not effect his win ratio and should reduce the slack he was getting from other players. Obviously he wasn't capable of handling the crap and didn't know how to throw it back.

Again a very good analysis on your part and a stupidly simplified explanation on my part. I stand corrected but I still stand by my reasoning that you will get less criticism, right or wrong, at first base than at 3rd base.

 

[QFIT]

You are right in terms of overal probability. I just like the idea of knowing the chances, as close to possible, of getting a good card as opposed to having the odds possible change by sitting at 3rd base. Granted the odds could improve.

I'm not sure you get it yet. The odds DON'T change. Where you sit has no effect on the cards you get. It does affect the information you have for playing.

As far as irritating people, that's good. Maybe they'll leave.

 

[fsscout]

I am sure we can all go on for hours discussing the advantages and disadvantages of each sitting position. I consider myself as a very good player and a good counter but not an extremely skilled player. My weakness is that I haven't mastered the play when the counts gets extremely positive or negative. I feel that sitting at first base will not put me in that position as often as sitting at 3rd base. When it comes to having to make my play the count is the same as when the hand was first dealt since none of the other players cards have yet to be exposed. I don't have to do a lot of quick counting (and added counting when all the cards have been exposed) and quick calculations.

I just feel that 1st base suits my abilities better than 3rd base. If my reasoning is off base I would appreciate some constructive criticism.

 

[Sonny]

When it comes to having to make my play the count is the same as when the hand was first dealt since none of the other players cards have yet to be exposed. I don't have to do a lot of quick counting (and added counting when all the cards have been exposed) and quick calculations.

That's true for pitch games, but shoe games are the opposite. Many people don't like first base because you are first to act. You have to do all the counting and calculating while you are "under the gun" and the dealer is waiting for you. Some people find it easier to sit further down the table and have more time to count all the face-up cards before they have to play their hand. This is only for face-up games though.

-Sonny-

 

[fsscout]

I'm not sure you get it yet. The odds DON'T change. Where you sit has no effect on the cards you get. It does affect the information you have for playing.

As far as irritating people, that's good. Maybe they'll leave.

I do get it, The overall odds do not change in the long run but can change either positively or negatively for the person sitting at third base since he is the last player to receive his cards for one particular hand. You basically said that before. I understand it all evens out in the end and I admitted my mistake when I said one is likely to get better cards at 1st base than at 3rd base. The point I am trying to make now is that there will be less deviation of the true count for the player at first base when he receives his cards than at third base. The deviations will even out for the player at 3rd base thus his chances of receiving good cards are the same as 1st base in the long run, but in the short term (one hand) it could be significantly better or worse and there is no telling which it will be.

If there are any studies that have been done on this I would love to see them.

 

[fsscout]

That's true for pitch games, but shoe games are the opposite. Many people don't like first base because you are first to act. You have to do all the counting and calculating while you are "under the gun" and the dealer is waiting for you. Some people find it easier to sit further down the table and have more time to count all the face-up cards before they have to play their hand. This is only for face-up games though.

-Sonny-

You are 100% right, but I only play DD pitch games. I tend to screw up in the count in shoe games after a couple of decks have been dealt. I know my short comings and try not to fool myself in terms of my abilities.

 

[Nynefingers]

I do get it, The overall odds do not change in the long run but can change either positively or negatively for the person sitting at third base since he is the last player to receive his cards for one particular hand. You basically said that before. I understand it all evens out in the end and I admitted my mistake when I said one is likely to get better cards at 1st base than at 3rd base. The point I am trying to make now is that there will be less deviation of the true count for the player at first base when he receives his cards than at third base. The deviations will even out for the player at 3rd base thus his chances of receiving good cards are the same as 1st base in the long run, but in the short term (one hand) it could be significantly better or worse and there is no telling which it will be.

If there are any studies that have been done on this I would love to see them.

If I'm reading this right, then I think you do pretty much understand the differences and just weren't expressing your thoughts clearly before.

Based on what you said above, you are correct in that the bets are already made and without indices, you won't really see any differences in your results from playing one seat vs. another. People tend to suggest sitting more towards third base because when you see more cards, you can make more accurate playing deviations. As you said, the more cards you see in a round before you act, the more potential there is for the count to fluctuate significantly. And if the count crosses over the index number for the hand you hold, then the extra information of seeing more cards allowed you to make a more accurate playing decision on that hand than if you had not seen those cards. That's why sitting at third base or close to it is often preferable. Of course there are other considerations, as you mentioned, that affect how easy it is for a given player to keep the count from various seats.

 

[blackchipjim]

positional information disfunction

I love to sit at third base and jerk the table for entertainment value. My eyesight is starting to wane which may force me to an off center seat. This getting old crap is starting to really bother me.:laugh:

 

[fsscout]

I love to sit at third base and jerk the table for entertainment value. My eyesight is starting to wane which may force me to an off center seat. This getting old crap is starting to really bother me.:laugh:

Please let me know when and where you plan on playing. I prefer not to be in your audience when you plan on doing your entertaining thing.

 

[FreeStyle]

What's "jerking" a table mean?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

What's "jerking" a table mean?

I would think it would be better to sit at second base for that practice, so you can use both hands.

 

[LIB]

Edit

this could be a make-shift opportunity that functions as a surrender for hands with a negative expectation. I believe James Grosjean talks of this in his article about Scavenger Blackjack, but my memory fails me.

James Grosjean DOES provide information on this matter; math included. I felt a need to edit this because I almost sound like I partially came up with the idea. I most certainly did NOT come up with any portion of the idea what-so-ever. Offering an information in a misleading way is my second least favorite thing I sometimes do, as a mistake of course.

 

[Nvrlose37]

I myself hate people who do this at the tables, my dad is probably the worst offender. No matter how much I try to tell him the idea behind counting and the "abnormal" stratigies used he pretty much thinks it will always help the dealer. Its annoying to play with anyone when you hit 12 v 3 or stand 77 v 10, it doesnt turn out good and then they just look at you. Its like **** off right?

I do enjoy messing with them though, Im going to use the response about who's money is in the circle often now.

 

[Coyote]

I myself hate people who do this at the tables, my dad is probably the worst offender. No matter how much I try to tell him the idea behind counting and the "abnormal" stratigies used he pretty much thinks it will always help the dealer. Its annoying to play with anyone when you hit 12 v 3 or stand 77 v 10, it doesnt turn out good and then they just look at you. Its like **** off right?

I do enjoy messing with them though, Im going to use the response about who's money is in the circle often now.

I have seen a fellow member really give a ploppy the what for at a table! He used the "who's money is in the circle" line too! He added some very eloquant phrasing to it. He really shut his a$$ up! It was awsome!

 

[Shoofly]

Ignore them. I don't acknowledge them in any way. I don't give them a dirty look, don't even look up from the cards, and don't say anything. Just continue playing. They will usually go on for awhile, "He is messing up the cards, he is taking the dealer's bust card, yada, yada, yada." After awhile, with no response they just get up and leave in disgust. GOOD!

 

[johndoe]

Ignore them, or use them. I've had several people buy my otherwise-surrendered hands in the past. "Hey, if you don't like what I do, then YOU play it."

 

[AC232323]

My choice is the second to last spot. The reason is in a face-down game you can usually see the cards of the person on the left, gives you slightly more playing information on the average.

I usually sit in the last spot...this lets me see the person to my right's cards and have the most information available. Most people hold the cards in their right hand so being to the left lets me see at least one person's cards.