What I don't get about team play.
- Thread starter rogue1
- Start date
Let's use an example with round numbers. You can play with your $100, with a $1 unit. So, in a decent game, you can win $2 an hour. Let's say you play 40 hours a week. Therefore, you win $80 a week.
Or, you can form a team with ten people. Now you have $1000, and a $10 unit. So you win $20 an hour. Ten players are playing 40 hours a week, for a total of $8000 per week. You get one tenth, which is $800.
Thus, you earn 10 times as much with a ten man team, with your same contribution.
Or, you can form a team with ten people. Now you have $1000, and a $10 unit. So you win $20 an hour. Ten players are playing 40 hours a week, for a total of $8000 per week. You get one tenth, which is $800.
Thus, you earn 10 times as much with a ten man team, with your same contribution.
The above advice seems to be geared towards EMFH teams - Every Member For Him/Herself.
There's an unmentioned advantage for other teams, which is that with BP (Big Player) teams, you can achieve phenomenal bet spreads (1:100) and incredible Wonging (TC > +4). The drawback to the BP teams is that you need a large bankroll.
There's an unmentioned advantage for other teams, which is that with BP (Big Player) teams, you can achieve phenomenal bet spreads (1:100) and incredible Wonging (TC > +4). The drawback to the BP teams is that you need a large bankroll.
You don't need spreads like that if you are backcounting. It's true that NMS restrictions make backcounting difficult at high bets, but Wong-out play is almost as effective and a 1-8 spread works just fine for that.
The EMFH (kind of a misnomer, because every man isn't playing for himself, he's playing for the team) also has the benefit of a Cicada attack. Cicadas live underground and come out en masse every dozen years or so. They are slow and easy to catch. They have no sting or poison. Their only defense mechanism as a species is all coming out at once so that predators can only catch a small percentage of them during a cicada storm.
Likewise, a well-disguised EMFH team can take over a casino with a good SD or DD game, one player per table, and all start spreading like crazy. Most casinos don't have more than a couple of employees skilled enough to catch counters, it'll be a long time before they can figure out what's going on and who's involved. Especially if each counter makes a big stink as they get picked off, maybe even feigns an injury or a panic attack or something, it'll take a lot of time and trouble to get rid of them all. A special benefit of this kind of team play is they don't even have to share bankroll! Just the added time with a big spread they get from being "cicadas" is enough to dramatically increase EV for each player. They can each play their own betting unit, their own spread, anything they want and it all remains equitable.
The EMFH (kind of a misnomer, because every man isn't playing for himself, he's playing for the team) also has the benefit of a Cicada attack. Cicadas live underground and come out en masse every dozen years or so. They are slow and easy to catch. They have no sting or poison. Their only defense mechanism as a species is all coming out at once so that predators can only catch a small percentage of them during a cicada storm.
Likewise, a well-disguised EMFH team can take over a casino with a good SD or DD game, one player per table, and all start spreading like crazy. Most casinos don't have more than a couple of employees skilled enough to catch counters, it'll be a long time before they can figure out what's going on and who's involved. Especially if each counter makes a big stink as they get picked off, maybe even feigns an injury or a panic attack or something, it'll take a lot of time and trouble to get rid of them all. A special benefit of this kind of team play is they don't even have to share bankroll! Just the added time with a big spread they get from being "cicadas" is enough to dramatically increase EV for each player. They can each play their own betting unit, their own spread, anything they want and it all remains equitable.
They could figure that out, but only after the fact. If the surveillance guy in a small casino that backs off maybe a player a week announces to the shift manager that there is now a counter at every table in the place, they are going to think he's paranoid on drugs or something and not going to be sure how to react. What are they going to do, call the national guard into the casino?
It seems like it has a lot of potential for an ad hoc team of guys who don't know each other that well and don't want to get involved with bankroll sharing. All they have to do is agree to show up at the same casino at the same time and spread like hell. And if two or more guys on this team decide they want to share bankroll, that's between them and doesn't affect anyone else.
It seems like it has a lot of potential for an ad hoc team of guys who don't know each other that well and don't want to get involved with bankroll sharing. All they have to do is agree to show up at the same casino at the same time and spread like hell. And if two or more guys on this team decide they want to share bankroll, that's between them and doesn't affect anyone else.
The underlying assumption here is that the casino won't simply take action against people en masse because they want to be sure of AP before action is taken.
I'm not sure that hold for all casinos.
For example, if a pit boss notices an absurd number of people spreading like crazy, he can simply just announce flat betting only at all the tables. Or order 50% penetration on all games. Or the more churlish Vegas pit bosses might just mass bar everyone who spreads 1-4 or higher.
It would be a lot of fun, though - both to watch and to participate in.
I'm not sure that hold for all casinos.
For example, if a pit boss notices an absurd number of people spreading like crazy, he can simply just announce flat betting only at all the tables. Or order 50% penetration on all games. Or the more churlish Vegas pit bosses might just mass bar everyone who spreads 1-4 or higher.
It would be a lot of fun, though - both to watch and to participate in.
This is just not a very good idea. Nor is it very realistic. A team needs some sense of trust and loyalty. So basically you're suggesting that a bunch of card counters converge on a casino and spread like hell to what, confuse the casino? As the first one gets booted whats in it for him? Whats in it for the next guy backed off? Nothing. I don't know of any AP's that play for real money that would turn a casino into a hot zone for no additional gain. This is not a team as much as it is a logistical nightmare. It is never a good idea to saturate one place with too many counters. As soon as one is detected the level of awareness has risen. If more than one is detected than they will start thinking team play, and counting at that point anywhere in that casino would be foolish. They don't need the national guard to clean up either, just an old man in a sport coat with a finger that can tap. And believe me they won't be as lenient to your return, or allowing you to stay to play other games if they suspect you are part of a team. Most casinos consider that more dangerous then just a solitary counter and usually think even your presence in the casino is a risk. With this method you describe you get no real added benefit of what a team can offer, but are adding to the risk.
You're missing the point. No casino has an army of counter catchers. If you read Snyder's surveillance report you'll see that some casinos don't even have one competent surveillance man. Let's assume there's one. He can only watch one table at a time and while he's counting along with one player, everybody else is doing whatever they want undetected.
You don't need a counter catcher in order to execute countermeasures. Competent counter catchers only work in the everyday scenario where you have many ploppies and only a few counters. You don't want to scare the ploppies, so you do a lot of research on suspected counters before barring.
Now reverse the premise of that scenario - you flood a place with counters and only a handful of ploppies are there. Being careful about banning ploppies is useless now. They'll just ban anyone who spreads more than 1-2 and shuffle after every round on single-deck games. Or, they'll just demand photo ID from every player and take names.
Shoot, if I were a floor manager, I could probably score myself a huge raise by grabbing an instant camera from the gift shop, and photographing every single player at every table before instructing the pit bosses to check ID's. Presenting photographic evidence of a 100-member card counting (cheaters!
) ring would go pretty far in the corporate world.
Now reverse the premise of that scenario - you flood a place with counters and only a handful of ploppies are there. Being careful about banning ploppies is useless now. They'll just ban anyone who spreads more than 1-2 and shuffle after every round on single-deck games. Or, they'll just demand photo ID from every player and take names.
Shoot, if I were a floor manager, I could probably score myself a huge raise by grabbing an instant camera from the gift shop, and photographing every single player at every table before instructing the pit bosses to check ID's. Presenting photographic evidence of a 100-member card counting (cheaters!
) ring would go pretty far in the corporate world.Showing up after getting barred has legal ramifications.
If the casino has reason to suspect a crime has been committed, they have justification for detaining you. And if surveillance finds 2-3 trespassers, it'll be cakewalk in a Nevada courtroom to defend "we thought they were part of a team so we detained everyone".
If the casino has reason to suspect a crime has been committed, they have justification for detaining you. And if surveillance finds 2-3 trespassers, it'll be cakewalk in a Nevada courtroom to defend "we thought they were part of a team so we detained everyone".
At ther same time, yes, and the same table, nothing too oblivious or obvious for that matter, just a fun night out and no obvious "table" talk.
I have done it with two other mates years ago, quite successful and with low bets, with the occassional "big" bets $1000 abox on three boxes, which was built up from 1 box @ $25
I can make a team from the table I am at, just by my plays alone
I have done it with two other mates years ago, quite successful and with low bets, with the occassional "big" bets $1000 abox on three boxes, which was built up from 1 box @ $25
I can make a team from the table I am at, just by my plays alone