When to use a matchplay in BJ

F

Finrod

Active Member
#1
#1
I have read all the threads regarding matchplays, but did not see one that addressed my specific question. I understand that BJ is not the optimal game for using a matchplay coupon, but lets say that is what I am going to do.

At what true count would you use the matchplay? Counts at 1 or less don't seem to make sense, but max bets come so rarely, do you really want to wait for that? Or somewhere in between?

Also, do you push the matchplay coupon out in addition to your normal bet for that count or as a part of your normal bet?

Appreciate your comments.
 
T

tthree

Banned
#2
#2
I think you are overlooking that you can double, insure or split for your bet plus the matchplay not to mention the bonus payout for blackjack. I would wait for a count that has you insuring and making lots of splits and double downs. Only take the positive EV split, a defensive split is a bad move.
 
B

BMDD

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
tthree said:
I think you are overlooking that you can double, insure or split for your bet plus the matchplay not to mention the bonus payout for blackjack. I would wait for a count that has you insuring and making lots of splits and double downs. Only take the positive EV split, a defensive split is a bad move.
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Wouldn't you want to be making more splits to defend your match play? Essentially you are splitting for less so you want make splits that maximize the odds of winning your match play.
 
T

tthree

Banned
#4
#4
BMDD said:
Wouldn't you want to be making more splits to defend your match play? Essentially you are splitting for less so you want make splits that maximize the odds of winning your match play.
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They don't let you split for less.
 
B

bjcardcounter

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
tthree said:
I think you are overlooking that you can double, insure or split for your bet plus the matchplay not to mention the bonus payout for blackjack. I would wait for a count that has you insuring and making lots of splits and double downs. Only take the positive EV split, a defensive split is a bad move.
Click to expand...
I played match play and tried a double down. The PB said it does not have value until won. So, I can double for my original bet only.
 
M

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
May I ask what a matchplay is ? I guess it is some sort of bonus chip you need to match with a money chip, and if you win the bet, the bonus chip pays the matched amount but the bonus chip will be taken anyway ?
For an fair even bet it would be worth half it's matched value.

But how is a matchplay handled in terms of betting in BJ?

What happens with a push, would you keep the match play ?
(if the match play is taken on a push, you only win 45% of your hands, making an initial match play bet quite weak)

How does one double/split his hand if the initial bet is a match-play ?
If you have a $100 match play + $100 real money, can you double/split for $200 real money ? Only for $100 ?

Can you double/split a normal hand with a match-play ?
If your initial bet is $100, can you double for $100 real money + $100 match play ? That would be even nicer, as you can double effectively for more, plus you spend your match play when you are really doubling/splitting.

Can you insure a normal hand with match play ?
If your initial bet is $200, can you insure for $100 match play + $100 real money ?

If those are your options, I would wait for a high TC count (well justifiying insurance), and match my insurance bet.
On the other hand, on a high TC count, one could double his 11 vs. 6 with match play (as you get better-than-fair probability for an even-paid bet).
One would need to check with exact probability...
 
T

tthree

Banned
#7
#7
MangoJ said:
May I ask what a matchplay is ? I guess it is some sort of bonus chip you need to match with a money chip, and if you win the bet, the bonus chip pays the matched amount but the bonus chip will be taken anyway ?
For an fair even bet it would be worth half it's matched value.

But how is a matchplay handled in terms of betting in BJ?

What happens with a push, would you keep the match play ?
(if the match play is taken on a push, you only win 45% of your hands, making an initial match play bet quite weak)

How does one double/split his hand if the initial bet is a match-play ?
If you have a $100 match play + $100 real money, can you double/split for $200 real money ? Only for $100 ?

Can you double/split a normal hand with a match-play ?
If your initial bet is $100, can you double for $100 real money + $100 match play ? That would be even nicer, as you can double effectively for more, plus you spend your match play when you are really doubling/splitting.

Can you insure a normal hand with match play ?
If your initial bet is $200, can you insure for $100 match play + $100 real money ?

If those are your options, I would wait for a high TC count (well justifiying insurance), and match my insurance bet.
On the other hand, on a high TC count, one could double his 11 vs. 6 with match play (as you get better-than-fair probability for an even-paid bet).
One would need to check with exact probability...
Click to expand...
It may vary from casino to casino and I haven't had a matchplay in a long time so my experience may be dated.

1) You get 3:2 for your total including the matchplay
2) Your match play pushes on a push
3) Yes you can double or split for the full amount
4) I've never been in a position where I wanted to insure a matchplay but given how they handle the other bets I assume you can insure a matchplay.
5) If you are going to use a matchplay for a bet you would make anyway it is only valuable if it loses (almost always they take it after you win or lose). You want to use it in addition to your normal bet in the situation you are in to make winning it a net plus.
 
F

Finrod

Active Member
#8
#8
Good Ideas

Wow, some really neat ideas I had not thought of. Keep them coming...

The matchplay I am referring to is a coupon. This particular coupon has a fixed amount of $5. There is really no small print on the coupon other than "excludes poker", but I assume it can only be used on even money bets. It must be played with a real money bet. They do take the coupon from the table after a decision has been made on it.

The one idea mentioned which I find intriguing is on a +EV split. Suppose I have a 2 unit bet and I split. Do I put out two units and the matchplay or one unit and the matchplay? I did not think they would let me do two units and the matchplay, but I guess I do not know unless I try. Obviously two units and the matchplay would be the best option. Correct?
 
T

tthree

Banned
#9
#9
Each store is different so put out the money for the bet and the matchplay and see how they handle it. You can try pleading your case but I wouldn't count on changing their policy if one has been established.
 
M

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
If it's just $5, there is nothing to think about.
Put it - together with your $5 on a number-bet on roulette. Although the house edge is large, you get higher EV due to the higher odds.
 
T

tthree

Banned
#11
#11
MangoJ said:
If it's just $5, there is nothing to think about.
Put it - together with your $5 on a number-bet on roulette. Although the house edge is large, you get higher EV due to the higher odds.
Click to expand...
Matchplay is only good for even money payouts. Getting a blackjack is the only exception I am aware of.
 
T

The Suburbs

Active Member
#12
#12
Also one thing to be aware of is that stores that offer surrender will often times give you back the matchplay coupon AND half of however much you bet when you surrender. That means you're effectively getting 75% (or 66%, if you count matchplays as worth 1/2 their face value) of your bet back. I'm guessing this probably makes surrendering any stiff hand against a 10/ace the right move, but someone can do the calculations themselves.

Also, I've seen people who get these matchplays sell them for slightly less than 1/2 the face value. I guess that would be the RA strategy.
 
2

21forme

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
The Suburbs said:
Also one thing to be aware of is that stores that offer surrender will often times give you back the matchplay coupon AND half of however much you bet when you surrender.
Click to expand...
I've also seen Match Play coupons that you lose if you surrender, and also some that will only pay even money on BJ. So, if it's $5 match play, you get $7.50 for your red chip, but only $5 for the coupon.
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
21forme said:
I've also seen Match Play coupons that you lose if you surrender, and also some that will only pay even money on BJ. So, if it's $5 match play, you get $7.50 for your red chip, but only $5 for the coupon.
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Thats been , by far, the most popular rule I've encountered in casinos.
Casinos that pay premiums on BJ or let you split for $10 with a $5 chip and a MP are fairly rare. Dealers do mistakes though, so it doesn't hurt to try.
 
P

pit15

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
The Suburbs said:
Also one thing to be aware of is that stores that offer surrender will often times give you back the matchplay coupon AND half of however much you bet when you surrender. That means you're effectively getting 75% (or 66%, if you count matchplays as worth 1/2 their face value) of your bet back. I'm guessing this probably makes surrendering any stiff hand against a 10/ace the right move, but someone can do the calculations themselves.

Also, I've seen people who get these matchplays sell them for slightly less than 1/2 the face value. I guess that would be the RA strategy.
Click to expand...
Selling a matchplay (I'm assuming at under the actual value of it, since people aren't going to pay more for a coupon) is not only -EV, but there's potentially HUGE variance. That's something that can get you trespassed. And in order to sell a MP it can't have your name / card # on it.

I've sold show tickets I got comped one time, but I did the transaction in a different casino then where the show was (and I put the ad on craigslist). If you stand there waving the tickets like a dumbass scalper there's a good chance you'll attract negative attention.
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
tthree said:
Matchplay is only good for even money payouts. Getting a blackjack is the only exception I am aware of.
Click to expand...
One of my local casinos was offering 'table game' matchplays for a time. They were valid on both blackjack and roulette. The rules stated that for roulette they could only be used on dozens or columns (i.e. 2:1) bets, slightly better for the player than the even-money bets for which they were not valid.:confused:
 
M

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
London Colin said:
One of my local casinos was offering 'table game' matchplays for a time. They were valid on both blackjack and roulette. The rules stated that for roulette they could only be used on dozens or columns (i.e. 2:1) bets, slightly better for the player than the even-money bets for which they were not valid.:confused:
Click to expand...
I guess the casino fears people who will hedge the matchplay on even bets.
Although it is not difficult on columns either (but the house take is larger then).
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#18
#18

You are wasting your time thinking about when to play a match-play coupon at blackjack.

If you wait until you have a good strong True Count, all that means is that you MAY have a 1% or 2% advantage.

That being said, by playing the coupon off-the-top you are foregoing 1% or 2% or 3% of what ?

$10 ? $25 ? Do the math !

If making an extra few pennies is important to you, you will never be an A.P.

The advantages referenced above are keyed to your splits and doubles. As the 'extra' money wagered —

is NOT giving you double value on the coupon, your advantage is less than you think.

Betting it "off-the-top" is good camouflage as the pit critter will imagine that you are anything-but-a-card-counter.
 
P

pit15

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
London Colin said:
One of my local casinos was offering 'table game' matchplays for a time. They were valid on both blackjack and roulette. The rules stated that for roulette they could only be used on dozens or columns (i.e. 2:1) bets, slightly better for the player than the even-money bets for which they were not valid.:confused:
Click to expand...
Funny, because the match play is worth more on a dozen/column then any even money bet.

One of the best ways to use a match play is a straight up # on roulette, if allowed
 
Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#20
#20
FLASH1296 said:

You are wasting your time thinking about when to play a match-play coupon at blackjack.

If you wait until you have a good strong True Count, all that means is that you MAY have a 1% or 2% advantage.

That being said, by playing the coupon off-the-top you are foregoing 1% or 2% or 3% of what ?

$10 ? $25 ? Do the math !

If making an extra few pennies is important to you, you will never be an A.P.

The advantages referenced above are keyed to your splits and doubles. As the 'extra' money wagered —

is NOT giving you double value on the coupon, your advantage is less than you think.

Betting it "off-the-top" is good camouflage as the pit critter will imagine that you are anything-but-a-card-counter.
Click to expand...
Think Flash just about summed it up. If you have a somewhat bigger matchplay than $10, it might not be too bad to wait to a positive counts, as ploppies pull out the match play often when they make a big bet (according to what insane logic I don't know).

However, of course the cover when you bet a matchplay off the top when the pit is looking is much much more valuable than any waiting around to get a few extra cents.
 
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