Zen insurance indices

Discussion in 'Skilled Play - Card Counting, Advanced Strategies' started by laserjet, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. laserjet

    laserjet Active Member

    Could someone give me the true count Zen insurance indices for 1, 2, and 6 decks?
  2. NAP

    NAP Well-Known Member

  3. laserjet

    laserjet Active Member

    Hmmm, for high low all 3 indices are different. I wonder if he just omitted something accidently.
  4. BJgenius007

    BJgenius007 Well-Known Member

    You need to read the context carefully every time you learn the new indexes. If there is no context provided, you need to inspect indexes carefully, to decide it is 2DTC, 1DTC, 1/2DTC or 1/4DTC. (1DTC = one deck true count).

    Basically indexes for 1DTC of level 1 counting systems and 1/2DTC of level 2 counting systems are almost identical. If you are migrating from level 1 like HiLo or HiOptI to level 2 like Zen or AOII and you keep using 1 deck true count, you will notice the new indexes for level 2 are roughly double of old indexes for level 1.

    In this case, +5 should be Zen for 1DTC, you can convert it to +2.5 for Zen 1/2DTC. Basically all count systems are saying to buy insurance if TC is about +3 or higher. (Think another way, for every deck, there are 16 tens. You buy insurance when there are 17.25 or 17.5 tens, this is the point you get even to buy insurance bet since one third of 52 is 17.33. If there are more than 17.33 tens as true count is higher than 17.33, you make money to buy insurance.)
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  5. tthree

    tthree Banned

    Aces counted the same as tens mess up HILO for insurance. Zen counts them at half the value of a ten. That is the difference.
  6. laserjet

    laserjet Active Member

    Thanks for responding NAP, BJgenius, and tthree. By doubling the high low insurance indices for 1, 2, and 6 decks, I come up with 3, 5, and 6. Are you guys saying that 5 is correct for any number of decks? Just want to be sure.
  7. BJgenius007

    BJgenius007 Well-Known Member

    No, no, the insurance index for 2 deck, 6 deck and 8 decks should be roughly the same, about +3, assuming 1DTC. Single deck indexes are trickier because the cards on the table have much greater impact to affect indexes.

    And you need to read old threads about 2DTC, 1DTC, 1/2DTC and 1/4DTC. It is really important to know the differences among them before you use index plays. Otherwise, it is likely that the index you are using is half or double of the correct index.
  8. FLASH1296

    FLASH1296 Well-Known Member

    Just use +5 and stop worrying about it.
  9. laserjet

    laserjet Active Member

    Thanks Flash. Any other practioniers care to comment on this?
  10. BJgenius007

    BJgenius007 Well-Known Member

    I can see you are not convinced. Let us illustrate using an example.

    What Flash said is that the Zen most people use is 1 deck TC Zen. So you stick with +5, it is most likely the correct index for insurance. Give you an example,

    Assume you are playing 6 deck, assume 1 deck has been played, there are 5 decks remaining, the cards you have seen were 10, 6, 10, 6, 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 3,4,6,7, followed by five straight 5

    So the running count = -2+2-2+2+1+2+2+2+2+1+2+2+1+2x5 = +25

    We are using 1 deck true count (1DTC),

    So TC = +25 / 5 = +5

    Now dealer up card is A and he asked if anyone want to buy insurance, you should because TC is equal or higher than +5. You can see only two tens came out, so there are many tens in the remaining deck, so dealer's BJ probability is quite high.
    Same cards have been played. We just use 1/2 DTC.

    In some book, the author used 1/2 DTC (half deck true count), 5 decks is equal to 10 half-decks.

    So TC = +25/ 10 = +2.5

    The insurance index is +2.5 for 1/2DTC system. When TC is greater than or equal to +2.5, you should buy insurance.
    If we are using quarter deck true count, since 5 decks is equal to 20 quarter-decks,

    So TC = RC / # of quarter-deck = +25/20 = +1.25.

    The insurance index is +1.25 for 1/4DTC system. In this system, if true count is equal to or greater than 1.25, you should buy insurance.
    Just remember most people use one deck true count. It is old school true count. So +5 is a good answer for your first question.

    Your second question is more like "Under traditional one deck true count Zen, is insurance index +5 the same for 1 deck, 2 deck, 6 deck and 8 deck Blackjack?" The answer is yes.

    I just bring up another topic on grain size because more and more people move to half deck true count system because the grain size is smaller so the index will be more accurate in nature. And the indexes you need to memorize will be quite different on different grain size system. But you have to ask yourself, can you spot how many quarter-decks remaining by looking at the discard tray? It is much easier to say there are 2 decks remaining than say there are 8 or 9 or 10 quarter-decks remaining.
  11. bejammin075

    bejammin075 Active Member

    If you round instead of floor to get your TC

    then insure at 6 or greater.
  12. laserjet

    laserjet Active Member

    I have a lot of respect for you guys that have considerable experience at BJ. I was looking for confirmation since that the insurance bet is so important. I do appreciate you taking the time to give me your examples BJgenius. I think I'll just be using the 1 deck TC.
  13. BJgenius007

    BJgenius007 Well-Known Member

    One deck TC is a good choice for people learning Zen fresh. For people migrating from Hi Lo to Zen, the choice should be half deck true count because the indexes for the two will be roughly the same.
  14. tthree

    tthree Banned

    Or you can just remember to double the indices when they are used. That shouldn't be too hard. I often multiply the index by the number of decks remaining and compare to the RC rather than convert the RC to a TC when RC moved a lot since my bet and it is a close call. I am just faster with some numbers that way. Also it seems easier when using side count adjustments.
  15. laserjet

    laserjet Active Member

    Tthree, I'm curious, are the insurance indices for Hi Opt2 identical for 1, 2, and 6 decks?
  16. tthree

    tthree Banned

    I mostly play shoe games but for an ace neutral count like HIOPT II I would think so.
  17. bigplayer

    bigplayer Well-Known Member

    Insurance Index Numbers for Zen Count (Count-Per-Deck)

    Single Deck +4
    Multiple Deck +5
  18. bigplayer

    bigplayer Well-Known Member

    Nope, For Hi-Opt II I believe they are

    Single +3.5
    Double +5
    3+ Decks +6
  19. tthree

    tthree Banned

    Good to know. I have only played shoe games since learning it but plan to head south when I get fed up with the cold weather probably in February or March. The info might come in handy then. I will probably be counting the neutral cards so I will be accurate without those anyway. I assume the difference is due to the likely range of surplus or deficit neutral cards between the games.
  20. laserjet

    laserjet Active Member

    Thanks bigplayer for coming in even when the count wasn't high.:)

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