Zen v Hi-Lo

[SleightOfHand]

I recently started to upgrade from Hi-Lo to Zen. When punching in numbers from CVCX, I noticed that Zen is doing a lot worse than Hi-Lo in the sim. I'm using the "Complete Zen Count" S16 + F4 from CVCX premade playing strategies and the canned Hi-Lo S16 + F4 sim. Is this right?

 

[rukus]

is that '98 zen or '80 zen being run?

 

[SleightOfHand]

is that '98 zen or '80 zen being run?

Playing it makes it seem like the TC is calculated by whole decks remaining, which if I remember is the old one?

 

[rukus]

hmm then you got me. i dont have cvcx so i cannot confirm. all i can say is with 8Ds, hi lo's higher betting correlation probably finally overtakes zen's improved playing efficiency. BUT the difference should not be so drastic in SCORE... maybe a few dollars i would guess.

 

[jack.jackson]

You should raise your spread from 1:10 to 1:20, to see if the difference, becomes even more apparent. If it does, then the BC, would be the culprit.

 

[SleightOfHand]

hmmm

 

[jack.jackson]

What about a flat bet?

 

[zengrifter]

How many hands is each sim? Somethinf IS off. zg

 

[SleightOfHand]

How many hands is each sim? Somethinf IS off. zg

2 billion

 

[SleightOfHand]

What about a flat bet?

.

 

[sagefr0g]

it looks like it's from the disparity of how the bets are ramped.
try and ramp the bets the same in the custom column.

 

[SleightOfHand]

it looks like it's from the disparity of how the bets are ramped.
try and ramp the bets the same in the custom column.

.

 

[sagefr0g]

wonder how the comparison would be for double deck?

 

[SleightOfHand]

wonder how the comparison would be for double deck?

So Zen > HiLo here, but isn't Zen supposed to be better in both shoes and handheld? There is a difference in BC of .01 while Zen is substantially higher in both PC and IC.

 

[rukus]

you cant use the same bet ramps for both systems otherwise your SCOREs will not be true SCORES but rather c-SCORES. you need to use each system's optimal ramp calculated by CVCX.

that said, i still agree with mine and ZGs original assessment. something is off. Zen should not be 50% less effective than hi lo in an 8D game even with a 30-1 spread. at most 5-10 SCORE dollars i would think.

anyone else with cvcx want to take a crack at confirming this?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It all depends on the spread. The bigger the spread, the better the higher BC of High-Low does for you. Which is why counts like RPC and Halves outperform High-Low at high spreads. And in pitch games where high spreads are not possible and more finesse is needed, the added IC and PE of Zen is helpful, but it is outperfomed by ace-neutral counts like Hi-Opt II.

Zen performs a little bit better in H17 games and D9/D10 games where the ace has more power for the dealer and less for the player.

 

[QFIT]

You are comparing a level II and level I strategy, but in most sims you forced the backcounting to the same count. This means you are playing differing percentages of hands and entering at a different advantage. This invalidates the strategy comparison.

 

[sagefr0g]

here's a couple of canned one's set for same ten grand bankroll, same spread and optimal growth, rational bets.
one thing on sleight of hands sims, did you allow the zen sim to use i16 &fab4 as you did with the hi/lo ?

 

[SleightOfHand]

here's a couple of canned one's set for same ten grand bankroll, same spread and optimal growth, rational bets.
one thing on sleight of hands sims, did you allow the zen sim to use i16 &fab4 as you did with the hi/lo ?

Yes, on a side note, the zen didn't have any surrender indeces. But there was no surrender in the sim anyway, so that shouldn't have affected it.

You are comparing a level II and level I strategy, but in most sims you forced the backcounting to the same count. This means you are playing differing percentages of hands and entering at a different advantage. This invalidates the strategy comparison.

Kinda tired of constantly posting these shots, but I am getting a 20.43 SCORE for the Zen 10:1 spread same rules play all and 24.05 for Hi-Lo

PS: Perhaps the indeces that my strategy is using isn't right? I'm using the ones provided by the program for the "Complete Zen Count" which I assumed to be the "old" Zen count, which is supposedly better, due to the TC being calculated by full decks.

 

[QFIT]

You are wonging in at a lower advantage point for Zen. That means the SCORE will be lower. You do not use the same wong-in point when using level I and level II strategies using full count divisors.