Omega 2 vs zen

  • willywill

    Omega 2 vs zen

    Hi,

    I know the figure so I am asking for a more personal opinon and feeling between OMEGA 2 and ZEN count the best accuracy/esay to play ratio.
    For people in this chat.

    thanks for your answer

  • FLASH1296

     

    Insignificant differences between the power of two Level Two systems can be swamped by the difficulties imposed by the count.

    AO II requires Aces to be side-counted and Nines are counted as well.

    Zen is easier, by far; and close enough in power to be a fine count.

    AO II is better in “pitch” games; but I would rather use ZEN in shoe games.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: willywill said:
    Hi,

    I know the figure so I am asking for a more personal opinon and feeling between OMEGA 2 and ZEN count the best accuracy/esay to play ratio.
    For people in this chat.

    thanks for your answer

    Forget AO2 and go with ZEN or Mentor. zg

  • willywill

    thx

    Thanks for the answer guys, this is what I told to one of my mate that argue that with the side count of ace AO2 was much better than zen count and worth the extra difficulty (.92=>.99). but as I am playing shoe game UK/France I do think that zen will still be above in term of ratio accuracy/difficulty.

    Anyway thx for your time and if you come in london send me an PM

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: willywill said:
    Thanks for the answer guys, this is what I told to one of my mate that argue that with the side count of ace AO2 was much better than zen count and worth the extra difficulty (.92=>.99).

    Your friend is wrong. The best you would achieve is to get same result but working harder, with AO2.

    Also, if you choose ZEN you should NOT use 1/4D TC version in current Blackbelt book. Use 1DTC version… or learn Mentor in BJ Bluebook. zg

  • willywill

    some explanation

    I am sorry if it’s sounds suptid but even if I’ve read the two book you are mentioning (quite a while ago I agree) and even blackjack for blood and some other. I am still not very good with abreviation so can you give more explanation about 1DTC (I am think 1 …. true count??). and yeah I thought of switching to mentor too but I am good with zen so far.

  • willywill

    Pm

    and also when can I PM on on this forum? I heard it’s after 10 post but still can’t see anything like PM on user page or on the forum

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: willywill said:
    I am sorry if it’s sounds suptid but even if I’ve read the two book you are mentioning (quite a while ago I agree) and even blackjack for blood and some other. I am still not very good with abreviation so can you give more explanation about 1DTC (I am think 1 …. true count??). and yeah I thought of switching to mentor too but I am good with zen so far.

    TCs can be calibrated differently. 1/4DTC is the latest ZEN that we say do NOT use. Use the older 1DTC version. Or Mentor is calibrated at 2DTC, even better.

    If the whole TC thing eludes you, go with UBZ (unbalanced ZEN) a running count based system that is just as strong as the ZEN and Mentor. zg

  • willywill

    .

    Sorry for my english but for me 1DTC mean 1 deck True count = you adjust your running per 1 deck to get the true count is this what you mean?
    because the only thing I was not understanding in your post was the abreviation meaning. But If it’s what I mean above I am fine in coverting running into true count and I prefer balanced system. This is also why I like Zen balanced and also very accurate without being too complicate.
    By the way I read your interview, very interesting. It’s been now 2 y that I am counting and playing regularly and I am glad I finnaly took the time to go on a forum to share some thoughts.

    thx for your time also I really appriciate it.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: willywill said:
    Sorry for my english but for me 1DTC mean 1 deck True count = you adjust your running per 1 deck to get the true count is this what you mean?

    Yes.

  • desertwolf

     

    How much stronger are these counts than hi-lo count. If you can win more money with a different count with the same effort, why doesn’t everyone switch? After you learn the count it wouldn’t be any harder would it?

  • willywill

    Personal point

    I think that Hi-Low is great when you start but I personal switch not so long ago for a lvl 2 as it is a good balnce betwen accuracy and difficulty (my point of view) and also better for Sigle and double deck (even if we don’t have the luck to have lot of them in Europe)

  • willywill

    books

    any advice for aa good book on the old style zen?
    anf on zen count in genreal? (different than blackbelt and blueprint)

    Thanks

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: willywill said:
    any advice for aa good book on the old style zen?
    anf on zen count in genreal? (different than blackbelt and blueprint)

    Blackbelt is fine for Zen EXCEPT the numbers.
    Get the correct 1DTC#s here. Use the multideck#s for any#decks INCLUDING 1D. >>>
    http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/Zen_Count_Indices.htm

    Before you commit them to memory, round them per ZGI. zg

  • bigplayer

     

    Quote: desertwolf said:
    How much stronger are these counts than hi-lo count. If you can win more money with a different count with the same effort, why doesn’t everyone switch? After you learn the count it wouldn’t be any harder would it?

    On shoe games expect 5% to 10% higher SCORE with Zen. On Double Deck 10% to 15%. On Single Deck 20%. Zen isn’t much harder than High-Low…you give up a little on betting efficiency in exchange for a big increase in playing decision correlation and insurance correlation.

    A lot of players use AO2 Tags for Single Deck and Double deck and use Zen Tags for shoes all using a single set of index numbers for both (The Index Numbers are very close).

    I agree with Grifter…use the Original Zen 1980 Count Per Deck, not the True Edge version.

  • bigplayer

     

    Quote: willywill said:
    any advice for aa good book on the old style zen?
    anf on zen count in genreal? (different than blackbelt and blueprint)

    Thanks

    Only book I know of is the original version of Blackbelt. You can find the original “Complete Zen” index numbers in Casino Verite and CVData. You can also generate them yourself using CVData.

    The AO2 indexes in Blackjack for Blood will also work just fine…especially if you choose to use AO2 for pitch games and Zen for shoes.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: bigplayer said:
    On shoe games expect 5% to 10% higher SCORE with Zen. On Double Deck 10% to 15%. On Single Deck 20%. Zen isn’t much harder than High-Low…you give up a little on betting efficiency in exchange for a big increase in playing decision correlation and insurance correlation.

    Interestingly, Brett Harris ran what I consider to be the definitive sims on 6D ENHC pitting ZEN against RPC and ZEN won out.

    Quote: bigplayer said:
    I agree with Grifter…use the Original Zen 1980 Count Per Deck, not the True Edge version.

    Ah, BP, I am NOT ‘Grifter’, that is another poster over at BJ21.
    I am ‘THE Grifter®’, Zengrifter, and/or ZG. Cape’ce, paisan? zg

  • kewljason

     

    Quote: desertwolf said:
    How much stronger are these counts than hi-lo count. If you can win more money with a different count with the same effort, why doesn’t everyone switch? After you learn the count it wouldn’t be any harder would it?

    I would recommend that you stick with hi-lo, D-wolf. I can’t argue with bigplayer’s numbers that simulations show a 5-10% increase in level 2 counts over level one counts for shoe games, but I am a believer that in the real world that number tends to be on the lower end of that range, if not vanishes completely. Players that play a lot of pitch games may benefit from such a move, but a red chip player playing 10-12 hours a week, almost exclusively shoe games, such as yourself, isn’t going to see much difference. Since you have mastered hi-lo and been playing it for a number of years, I would definitely stick with that. I understand your frustration, that your results over the last few months are not what you hoped and thought they would be, but they wouldn’t be much different had you been playing a different count.

    If you are looking to bump up your results 5-10%, I would concentrate on other things before considering learning a new count. Things like playing as accurately as possible, getting out of those negative counts, concentrate on finding and playing better games, maybe take a second look at your bet spread and ramp, and don’t forget those matchplay’s. A few $5 and $10 matchplay’s per month, can really help out a red chipper.

  • bigplayer

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    Interestingly, Brett Harris ran what I consider to be the definitive sims on 6D ENHC pitting ZEN against RPC and ZEN won out.

    Ah, BP, I am NOT ‘Grifter’, that is another poster over at BJ21.
    I am ‘THE Grifter®’, Zengrifter, and/or ZG. Cape’ce, paisan? zg

    sorry for the confusion…I know who you are…we’ve had lunch together before at one of the old Rat Pack meetings.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: bigplayer said:
    sorry for the confusion…I know who you are…we’ve had lunch together before at one of the old Rat Pack meetings.

    Yes, and you are THE BP!
    Part of what set ExCAA off on me is the recurring confusion between me and Grifter.
    I offered to buy his handle once, but he thought it was worth “…a lot more than $20.”

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: kewljason said:
    If you are looking to bump up your results 5-10%, I would concentrate on …. playing as accurately as possible, getting out of those negative counts, concentrate on finding and playing better games, maybe take a second look at your bet spread and ramp, and don’t forget those matchplay’s. A few $5 and $10 matchplay’s per month, can really help out a red chipper.

    More importantly, play LONGER and fASTER, and add 40 extra +count indices.
    Those things alone combined can maybe add 50-100% additional EV per day.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: bigplayer said:
    A lot of players use AO2 Tags for Single Deck and Double deck and use Zen Tags for shoes all using a single set of index numbers for both (The Index Numbers are very close).

    Willywill and Desertwolf, don’t even think about it! zg

  • willywill

    hahaha

    Zen the real problem is not thinking about it ! it’s finding a SD or even DD in EUROPE!!

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