6:5 ?

probably your average guy in the street if he knows anything about casino's knows that blackjack is about the best game in the house. maybe he doesn't appreciate the significance of the historic payoff for a snapper. so now he stumbles in a casino one day and plops down at a 6:5 table thinking he's playing genuine blackjack as it's been historically known. probably even after this movie 21 comes out and people see it and come to believe that blackjack's a great game, well they probably will still end up being fooled by the 6:5 fraudulent, decietful and counterfiet game being foisted upon them.
 
sagefr0g said:
probably your average guy in the street if he knows anything about casino's knows that blackjack is about the best game in the house. maybe he doesn't appreciate the significance of the historic payoff for a snapper. so now he stumbles in a casino one day and plops down at a 6:5 table thinking he's playing genuine blackjack as it's been historically known. probably even after this movie 21 comes out and people see it and come to believe that blackjack's a great game, well they probably will still end up being fooled by the 6:5 fraudulent, decietful and counterfiet game being foisted upon them.
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OK, I think I get what you're driving at here. You think a ploppie is going to go to a casino, see "BLACKJACK 6:5" announced loud and clear and think that's "legit," that's how the game is played. The casino is being deceptive by putting their dishonesty in plain sight, never mentioning that 6:5 is a very sharp deviation from how the game is historically played.

You (and QFIT) are saying that the word "blackjack" has a specific, well-understood meaning and that rug is being ripped out from under an unsuspecting public. Hm.

Boy, I have to admit I'm torn. I believe in the adage about the fool and his money soon parting company but this is a persuasive argument.

Not that anyone is waiting for my judgment on this but I'm going to (somewhat hesitantly) reverse my position and agree that this constitutes fraud.

vQ
 
bj bob said:
There you go again Fr0gman, another example of your innate proclivity for reptilian/amphibian allusions (must run in the family).:grin:
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probably or maybe it has to do with the fact that i never even dreamed of gambling until about four years ago. lol . so i can relate to the ploppies and i can now definately know how sneaky the casino's are after hanging around you guys on this forum.
 
vonQuux said:
OK, I think I get what you're driving at here. You think a ploppie is going to go to a casino, see "BLACKJACK 6:5" announced loud and clear and think that's "legit," that's how the game is played. The casino is being deceptive by putting their dishonesty in plain sight, never mentioning that 6:5 is a very sharp deviation from how the game is historically played.

You (and QFIT) are saying that the word "blackjack" has a specific, well-understood meaning and that rug is being ripped out from under an unsuspecting public. Hm.

......

vQ
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pretty much. your going to notice when you go in these joints the sneaky things they do. just look at the slot machines and video poker machines. i mean all the slots are crap, but some are worse. they have a way of mixing them in ways that it's very deceptive same with the video poker. if your not very, very astute your way worse off.
same with the blackjack tables. they mix in 6:5 with 3:2 and six deck with eight deck , varying degrees of penetration and stupid side bets. all kinds of tricks to trip up the unwary.
 
vonQuux said:
You (and QFIT) are saying that the word "blackjack" has a specific, well-understood meaning and that rug is being ripped out from under an unsuspecting public.
Click to expand...

Pretty much.

I think a group sued or whatever to try to make it that a casino could no longer use the word "blackjack" to describe the game because 3-2 is the cornerstone and because the game was so dramtically and fundamentally altered by that rule.

But they lost of course.

It's probably a small miracle they can't call "double-exposure" "blackjack" but with just a few rule changes printed on the table.
 
bj bob said:
Fraud?=......No
Deceit?=.....Yes
Unethical?...Boarding on yes

Let me try to explain what Sonny, Shad and Norm are telling you on a more concrete level.
Suppose you're playing a SD $10 min. (3:2). You are counting and your bet spread is $10-$40. You're playing heads-up at 100 hands/ hour. If you're a decent counter with good rules and penetration you should expect to win about $20/ hour (i.e. 2U)and in that hour you would expect 5 BJ's. Now say you go over to the 6:5 table with the exact same speed and spread, your same 5 BJ's will have only paid $60 BJ's, whereas, at the first table you would have received $75. There is a $15 difference right there..almost all of your expected gain. In all probability, since we as counters tend to have larger bets out when a BJ hits, one can safely say that our BJ's would have paid off with an average $20 bet, thus in effect, caused us to lose out on $30, more than the expected profit/ hour.
Hopefully this example puts things into perspective for you. Let me end by saying that the 6:5 garbage is the same thing as counting a grand slam in baseball as three runs. IT'S UN-AMERICAN!!!:whip:
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As America has been going of late, it's all too American! But, yes, I agree.

I guess there's no law against changing the rules, and I'd be totally surprised if a court would view 6 to 5 bj as fraud, so I can only hope that the word gets out to the ploppies that the game can't be beat. That should be enough to pressure the casinos back into line.

But counters can't expect the casinos to sit still and let them continue to chip away slivers from their bottom line--and occasionally, chip off a large hunk or two. As long as bj can be beat, casinos will continue to shift the rules around. You know, I think they want to offer a fairly close game, because if none of the games could be beaten, counters, both good and bad, would stop playing completely, and that would hurt their bottom lines a lot.

If I were a casino I would want some bj games to be unbeatable (CSMs, 6:5 blackjack) and some games to be borderline (such as, DD H17, NDAS, mediocre pen, or any game with poor to sometimes decent pen). And that's close to where we're at now. The good games are getting fewer and far between, and what was good on Thursday may be changed on Friday, or the minute you begin betting large sums. I don't think Shadroch has anything to worry about. The casinos are in business to make money and they're doing a pretty good job of it despite our complaints and unheeded suggestions that they'd make more money if they'd just do it our way. lol
 
vonQuux said:
"Blackjack" doesn't denote a payout ratio at all so I'm confused where "literally" fits into the scheme. Literally, the name implies that a "black jack" is necessary to complete a "natural 21," nothing more, and we agree that it no longer is required (and yet the game can still reasonably be called "Blackjack").
Click to expand...

Another way of looking at this. There are hundreds of books and thousands of articles written about Blackjack. All of them say that a Blackjack is paid 3:2. Nearly all of them say that Blackjack has one of the smallest house edges in a casino at about .5%. So when someone sits down at a table with the word "Blackjack" printed on it - that's what they expect. The casinos have changed the game in a manner that instantly makes all the books wrong. I consider that a fundamental change to the game. It's a bait and switch so subtle in appearance while so dramatic in effect, few players notice.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2003/nov/13/taking-a-hit-new-blackjack-odds-further-tilt-advan/
(Disclaimer: I fed Jeff Haney some of the lines in this article.)
 
la_dee_daa said:
I also hear they try to hide the signs that say its 6/5 blackjack when presenting a single deck or double deck game, but i don't know for sure since i haven't been to vegas or any other large gambling places. this is very deceiving in my opinion.
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This is true depending on the casino. Some tables are clearly marked, while some have these tiny metallic signs which aren't attached to the tables so they get moved around and the signs are so small that they are difficult to read if your sight isn't perfect. And finally there are actually some casinos were nowhere on the felt or a sign does it state what blackjacks pay. You either have to ask or find out the hard way.
 
Reinheitsgebot

I would compare it the the German Reinheitsgebot which declares beer may only contain 4 ingredients, yeast, hops, barley, and water. You can add anything else you want to your beverage, but if you do, you can no longer sell it as beer.

Likewise, the casinos can deal any game they want, but they should no longer be permitted to call it blackjack if a natural no longer pays 3:2. Call it something else, because it is something else.
 
6:5 vs real blackjack

this may seem stupid and maybe it is. but watch this clip and you may see how complex and simple our notions about law really are. hence how the question of the casino's action with regard to 6:5 games and blackjack might well be construed as fraudulent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cp3X2YShCU
 
Automatic Monkey said:
I would compare it the the German Reinheitsgebot which declares beer may only contain 4 ingredients, yeast, hops, barley, and water. You can add anything else you want to your beverage, but if you do, you can no longer sell it as beer.

Likewise, the casinos can deal any game they want, but they should no longer be permitted to call it blackjack if a natural no longer pays 3:2. Call it something else, because it is something else.
Click to expand...

Yes, like Mayonnaise which under law can't be called Mayonnaise if the fat content is below a defined level. Or Champagne. If it's not from the Champagne district in France, the bottle says "Sparkling Wine." It can't be named Champagne.
 
The method the original poster is talking about is basically a card watching method. I've read the book he's talking about and the method goes something like this:

Watch the cards and if a smaller-then-average number of high cards comes out during a round of play, increase your next bet by one chip. If on the next hand, the same thing happens, increase your bet again by one chip. Or: If on the next hand, the high card/low card ratio is as it should be, stay with your 2 chip bet. Or: If on the other hand a higher than average number of high cards comes out, decrease your bet by one chip.

Repeat.

He goes on to say that this method will only work in single and double deck games and suggests a spread of 1-4.

I wouldn't call it a scam or a useless system, as I think it can be demonstrated that such a card watching method is effective in SD games. Furthermore, we should keep in mind that Cardoza is the owner of the publishing company that puts out a lot of books by reputable authors, including Arnold Snyder. Both Blackbelt in BJ and Big Book are published by Cardoza press.

If Cardoza was such a scammer, would Snyder want to be associated with him or his company?
 
SPX said:
If Cardoza was such a scammer, would Snyder want to be associated with him or his company?
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Other books published by Cardoza:

BEAT THE CRAPS TABLE, CARDOZA CRAPS MASTER, CASINO CRAPS FOR THE WINNER, WINNING CRAPS FOR THE SERIOUS PLAYER(twenty-five winning strategies), COMPLETE GUIDE TO WINNING KENO, THE BASICS OF WINNING KENO, THE GRI MASTER KENO STRATEGY: David Cowle's Professional Winning Strategy, MASTER LOTTO/LOTTERY STRATEGIES: Professor Jones Strategy for Non-Computer Users, PLATINUM LOTTERY For Windows, SECRETS OF WINNING BACCARAT

But then, he also sells my Football software.
 
Sonny said:
The problem is that the 6:5 payout changes more than just your starting advantage. Since the house edge is about 3 times higher than a regular BJ game it will take much more to overcome that disadvantage. Not only do you have a higher house edge to overcome, but the shortage on the BJ payout also makes your advantage move much slower. The odds will not move in your favor as quickly as they would in a 3:2 game. That means you will start out with a much deeper hole to climb out of and you will have to wait much longer too see the light of day.

To be more specific, in a regular SD BJ game the player will get the advantage around a true count of +1. With a 6:5 game he will have to wait until a true count of +5 to get an advantage. That very rarely happens. The player will almost never have the advantage because the house is short-changing him so badly. It’s like using a credit card with a 25% interest rate. Not only will it take you longer to pay it off, but you will end up paying much more money by the time you do. Basically, you are getting double-screwed. :cry:

-Sonny-
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Sonny I was just wondering?

Are you refering to Level one count In your Statement? Because I was actually very curious to at what point, precisely your TC would have to be before the advantage went Into your favor in a -1.4 House edge.

A TC of +5 doesnt seem that bad. Thats just a RC of +3 a 1/4 deck IN.
 
I Dont know......

.....Seems like a pretty Drastic and Sudden change to me. They've Literally taken the 40yrs, it has taken, for the good o' single deck to build its name and reputation and very quietly Overnite, all of sudden said heres your 6$, on your 5$ BJ and you say....Ive heard for the last 50yrs, that it was 7.50:confused: The Poor Dealer that needs his Job Then Says.... They told me to start paying you 6$ Instead....And you say WTF....is this S%*&?
After the 500,000 mile journey to get there, you say... well im here, might as well play...right Whadaya Gonna do, Play Poker?

What I really dont understand, is why such the discripency? There a Serious Hole there. They could of Acheived the same goal with H17 -.20, D11, -.85, No Splitting, -.45= -1.5%HA.( I mean couldnt of they found a Happy -Medium in there somewhere? But hey' I guess that would of sounded to bad for the ploppy, Give'me a break!
 
jack said:
What I really dont understand, is why such the discripency? There a Serious Hole there. They could of Acheived the same goal with H17 -.20, D11, -.85, No Splitting, -.45= -1.5%HA.( I mean couldnt of they found a Happy -Medium in there somewhere? But hey' I guess that would of sounded to bad for the ploppy, Give'me a break!
Click to expand...

Good point! I've often thought about that gap myself. A pretty big jump indeed. The solution IMHO, would have been to introduce a 7:5 BJ payout. This game would be "boaderline" to counters, especially if all the remaining rules were ideal, i.e. DOA, S17, LS and very good pen. My instinct tells me that that would result in a .45 HA. Right on the edge of an acceptable game for an AP.
 
iI could be worse. You could be playing in the Party Pit at the Rio where a bikini clad dealer will pay you even money on your BJ.
 
shadroch said:
iI could be worse. You could be playing in the Party Pit at the Rio where a bikini clad dealer will pay you even money on your BJ.
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Really? Is this the place that gets to advertise on it's marquee "World's most Liberal Rules" for some game that actually totally sucks with even money BJ's?
 
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