will do. just curious bout one thing though - why do you want multi-param adjustments with the 7 included in the block (i assume you mean one side count of all 7s and 8s and decisions based on that side count when you say "bivariate adjusts")? the 7 is already counted as +1 in the main count, no?
AO2 v. Zen
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will do. just curious bout one thing though - why do you want multi-param adjustments with the 7 included in the block (i assume you mean one side count of all 7s and 8s and decisions based on that side count when you say "bivariate adjusts")? the 7 is already counted as +1 in the main count, no?
zengrifter
Banned
Ya its counted but its too powerful to ignore, so by combining the 7s w/8s as a single quanity the imperfection should dilute, somewhat.
That what I think, Norm may disagree.
OR just whip out the 2DTC ZEN with rounded matrices, and then try JUST the multiparam 7s... and IF that doesn't work good enough, change the primary to this -
12222000-2-1 and attach the multiparam 7s.
But start by giving us something NEW under the sun - a 2DTC ZEN, in total non-conformity to Snyder's ill-concieved 1/4DTE ZEN.
You have your orders - MACH SCHNELL! zg
jack.jackson
Well-Known Member
zengrifter
Banned
Last edited:
that will be my excuse when whoever uses this stuff comes back complaining that it doesnt work...
If you say 2D ZEN would be ultimate, I would love to learn it. Yes I use 1DTC with HI-OPT I, but if I'm learning a new system from scratch, I'll do it to its best advantages and potential. Learning something new is not hard for me, I enjoy a challenge and I know I can learn it quickly. TC conversion, no problem. Eyeing the deck for estimation, no problem. Willing to learn something new, I got that and enjoy it. Teach me Grif, I want to play blackjack the best I can while having fun and making money. ZEN sounds pretty legit in all those aspects.
if you want to use zen, then start practicing counting down decks in the meantime. and follow along in the other post as we work through generating the indices for a 2D TC Zen. you can always train your eye/mind for 2D TC calcs much faster than actually learning to keep a running count.
Way ahead of you rukus. I've been practicing counting down a single deck using ZEN and have it down to 28 seconds. Plan on gettting it down to at least 20. And i will follow the other posts you are doing. I'm excited to see how this turns out and use this system you guys are figuring out.
zengrifter
Banned
20 seconds, grasshopper. zg
No problem. Ill have it down to at least 20 here quick. Good luck to you guys working on the 2D TC ZEN and thanks.
Let me see if I got you right:
1. You are saying that the Zen count (without count aces) is as much powerful as AO2 (whith count aces)??
2. I'm learning the AO2 but due to this fact I'm considering to switch to zen. I can count deck in 25 sec, TC is no problem. Would you advise me to switch to Zen and if I do should a be keeping a side count of any other card?
I'll play with 6-deck games for now, because there nothing else in my country
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zengrifter
Banned
Yes, ZEN, even for Euro shoes. NO sidecounts. zgMy answer is known here, but I'll repeat for some of the newcommers - UNLESS you use proficiently a secondary count consisting of A-2 vs 2&5+1, or similar, you will not realize the extra theoretical gain that AO2 portends. Ace density estimate per 1/4D as proposed by Humble and Carlson and Uston and Revere will NOT cut it. SO you wind up working harder to get the same gain as ZEN w/o Ace side-count. AND if your Ace 1/4 deck density estimate is not up to speed you won't even get your ZEN's worth.
Let me see if I got you right:
1. You are saying that the Zen count (without count aces) is as much powerful as AO2 (whith count aces)??
2. I'm learning the AO2 but due to this fact I'm considering to switch to zen. I can count deck in 25 sec, TC is no problem. Would you advise me to switch to Zen and if I do should a be keeping a side count of any other card?
I'll play with 6-deck games for now, because there nothing else in my country
Thanks. I'll get to work.
I found the indices on this forum and also read your interview but I also have a few question.
1. If I play 6d game, 75 %, resplit, DAS, double only 9,10,11, no hole card (lose all)- all together -0.64 % (I think), at 10 € table minimum what should be my bankroll and my betting spread? (It's 5€ table minimum but you have the minimum of 2 hands)
2. If 6 cards are "charlie" and pays 2 to 1 whats the strategy?
What is the minimum count to hit 13-16 on dealer 2-6, do I hit 17, 18 and on what count?
3. If 777 is payed 3 to 2 (no matter what dealer has) would it be useful to count 7 and what would be the strategy?
4. How much do I gain with these rules (6 cards-charlie and 777-blacjack?
I found the indices on this forum and also read your interview but I also have a few question.
1. If I play 6d game, 75 %, resplit, DAS, double only 9,10,11, no hole card (lose all)- all together -0.64 % (I think), at 10 € table minimum what should be my bankroll and my betting spread? (It's 5€ table minimum but you have the minimum of 2 hands)
2. If 6 cards are "charlie" and pays 2 to 1 whats the strategy?
What is the minimum count to hit 13-16 on dealer 2-6, do I hit 17, 18 and on what count?
3. If 777 is payed 3 to 2 (no matter what dealer has) would it be useful to count 7 and what would be the strategy?
4. How much do I gain with these rules (6 cards-charlie and 777-blacjack?
zengrifter
Banned
Can anyone help us out here? zg
zengrifter
Banned
1. Ideally you could wong this game with a 1-6 spread... but if thats impractical, we'll use a bigger spread and exit, sit out, or otherwise avoid neg-counts as often as practical - sitting out every other hand, for example, effectively doubles your net spread.
Someone else should give us the betting count increments, but the spread would look like this -
exit
5-5 every other
5-5
10-10
25-25
50-50
75-75
Min 10k BR, can be virtual, 15k is better.
2. I think the player additive is about .005 with a lot of variance - as for strategy, maybe some one here has it, but I know that it can be found in Wong's Basic BJ.
Show us what you come up with after you round your indices. OH, you decided on 1 or 2D TC calibration?
What are you using for "raw" indices, Snyder '93? Use Rukus if 2DTC.
I'm STILL recommending Renzey's MENTOR count in BJBB. zg
After reading many of post here and some books (BJ for Blood, Blackbelt in Blackjack, Kelly system, Beat the dealer...) I finally come with strategy (please correct me if I'm wrong in anything):
Game rules: 6D, S17, DAS, D 9-11, No Surrender, No Peek
1. Counting strategy: Zen-count (advice from zg)
True count adj: 1D
2. Indices for play:
Stand 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 X A
17 S S S S S S S S S S
16 S S S S S H H 8 0 H
15 -10 -12 S S S H H 13 6 H
14 -6 -8 -9 -12 -12 H H 20 12 H
13 -2 -4 -5 -8 -8 H H H H H
12 6 3 0 -2 -2 H H H H H
A7 S S S S S S S H H H
DOUBLE DOWN, HARD TOTALS
Double 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 X A
11 D D D D D D -14 -10 H H
10 D D D D D D -9 -4 H H
9 2 -2 -5 D D 7 H H H H
PAIR SPLITS
WITH DOUBLE AFTER SPLITS
Pairs 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
(A,A) Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y N
(T,T) N 13 12 11 10 N N N N N
(9,9) -4 -8 -8 Y Y 4 Y Y N N
(8,8) Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y N N
(7,7) Y Y Y Y Y Y 4 N N N
(6,6) -4 -8 Y Y Y N N N N N
(5,5) N N N N N N N N N N
(4,4) N 12 4 0 -4 N N N N N
(3,3) -8 Y Y Y Y Y 8 N N N
(2,2) -8 -8 Y Y Y Y 12 N N N
As you see I didn't round much but I left out the high 2-digit numbers because they don't have much efect on PE (especially negative ones).
3. Betting:
Acording to Kelly beting you sholud bet the percent advantage you have of your bankroll.
Example: Bankroll :10000 $
If your advantage is 1 % you sholud bet 100 $.
If your advantage is 2.5 % you should bet 250 $.
I was a little puzzeld why we don't use Kelly betting because it is the perfect way to bet. And here are my reasons:
Kelly betting says that if the house has the advantage you shouldn't bet at all (which is not allways possible). So with any negative count you shouldn't bet.
If the count is + 16 (the advantage is 3.5 %) and we should bet 3.5 % of our bankroll (assuming it is our maximum bet). We have just under 29 of these we have a great risk of ruin. (I acctualy don't know what is it but some of you can calculate it)
So here is my sugestion:
According to Arnold Snyder you should bet every "kelly unit" for 1/2 % of your advantage (every +2 TC):
1 ku - 0% +2 (because you start with -0.5 %)
2 ku - 0.5 % +4
3 ku - 1 % +6
4 ku - 1.5 % +8 and so on.
He sugested that we devide our bankroll by 400 to get the kelly unit.
Example:
Bankroll: 8000 $ (kelly unit = 20 $)
bet sperad: 20 $ -160 $
20 $ - 0 % TC: +2
40 $ - 0.5 % +4
60 $ - 1 % +6
80 $ - 1.5 % +8
100 $ - 2 % +10
120 $ - 2.5 % +12
140 $ - 3 % +14
160 $ - 3.5 % +16
Now if you adjust your kelly unit for every +/- 2000 $ of bankroll you'd get this: bankroll bet sperad max bet units lost (amount)
8000 $ 20-160 $ 12 2000 $
6000 $ 15-130 $ 17 2000 $
4000 $ 10-80 $ 25 2000 $
2000 $ 5-40 $ 50 2000 $
As you can see I'm always using 1-8 bet spread and at the end you should lose 104 your max bet units to lose all your money.
1. I'm wondering did I overlook something here or is every thing I wrote true?
2. Is it to complicated to use it in casino and whats the gain of all this?
Once again to remind you, I'm new to all of this so if I made some terrible mistakes my apologies.
gargamel
Game rules: 6D, S17, DAS, D 9-11, No Surrender, No Peek
1. Counting strategy: Zen-count (advice from zg)
True count adj: 1D
2. Indices for play:
Stand 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 X A
17 S S S S S S S S S S
16 S S S S S H H 8 0 H
15 -10 -12 S S S H H 13 6 H
14 -6 -8 -9 -12 -12 H H 20 12 H
13 -2 -4 -5 -8 -8 H H H H H
12 6 3 0 -2 -2 H H H H H
A7 S S S S S S S H H H
DOUBLE DOWN, HARD TOTALS
Double 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 X A
11 D D D D D D -14 -10 H H
10 D D D D D D -9 -4 H H
9 2 -2 -5 D D 7 H H H H
PAIR SPLITS
WITH DOUBLE AFTER SPLITS
Pairs 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
(A,A) Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y N
(T,T) N 13 12 11 10 N N N N N
(9,9) -4 -8 -8 Y Y 4 Y Y N N
(8,8) Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y N N
(7,7) Y Y Y Y Y Y 4 N N N
(6,6) -4 -8 Y Y Y N N N N N
(5,5) N N N N N N N N N N
(4,4) N 12 4 0 -4 N N N N N
(3,3) -8 Y Y Y Y Y 8 N N N
(2,2) -8 -8 Y Y Y Y 12 N N N
As you see I didn't round much but I left out the high 2-digit numbers because they don't have much efect on PE (especially negative ones).
3. Betting:
Acording to Kelly beting you sholud bet the percent advantage you have of your bankroll.
Example: Bankroll :10000 $
If your advantage is 1 % you sholud bet 100 $.
If your advantage is 2.5 % you should bet 250 $.
I was a little puzzeld why we don't use Kelly betting because it is the perfect way to bet. And here are my reasons:
Kelly betting says that if the house has the advantage you shouldn't bet at all (which is not allways possible). So with any negative count you shouldn't bet.
If the count is + 16 (the advantage is 3.5 %) and we should bet 3.5 % of our bankroll (assuming it is our maximum bet). We have just under 29 of these we have a great risk of ruin. (I acctualy don't know what is it but some of you can calculate it)
So here is my sugestion:
According to Arnold Snyder you should bet every "kelly unit" for 1/2 % of your advantage (every +2 TC):
1 ku - 0% +2 (because you start with -0.5 %)
2 ku - 0.5 % +4
3 ku - 1 % +6
4 ku - 1.5 % +8 and so on.
He sugested that we devide our bankroll by 400 to get the kelly unit.
Example:
Bankroll: 8000 $ (kelly unit = 20 $)
bet sperad: 20 $ -160 $
20 $ - 0 % TC: +2
40 $ - 0.5 % +4
60 $ - 1 % +6
80 $ - 1.5 % +8
100 $ - 2 % +10
120 $ - 2.5 % +12
140 $ - 3 % +14
160 $ - 3.5 % +16
Now if you adjust your kelly unit for every +/- 2000 $ of bankroll you'd get this: bankroll bet sperad max bet units lost (amount)
8000 $ 20-160 $ 12 2000 $
6000 $ 15-130 $ 17 2000 $
4000 $ 10-80 $ 25 2000 $
2000 $ 5-40 $ 50 2000 $
As you can see I'm always using 1-8 bet spread and at the end you should lose 104 your max bet units to lose all your money.
1. I'm wondering did I overlook something here or is every thing I wrote true?
2. Is it to complicated to use it in casino and whats the gain of all this?
Once again to remind you, I'm new to all of this so if I made some terrible mistakes my apologies.
gargamel
zengrifter
Banned
I didn't read all of the above - but regarding kelly-betting, bet up to the 1% immediately, then level off rapidly not exceeding 1.25% regardless of count.
When betting two hands add 50% to aggregate bet.
Example
1% = 100
2hands = 75 & 75
Last round before shuffle, go 3x 65 or 4x 50
When betting two hands add 50% to aggregate bet.
Example
1% = 100
2hands = 75 & 75
Last round before shuffle, go 3x 65 or 4x 50