Bodog blackjack cheating?

Guynoire

Well-Known Member
My results

I played 1000 hands at Bodog flat betting $1 a hand and using basic strategy. My expected loss was about $5 but I ended up positive $117.

That's over 3.5 standard deviations from the expected loss. The probability of something like that happening is less than 1 out of 2000. I'm not that lucky, Bodog must have cheated.
 

BodogBecky

New Member
garygo said:
First of all thank you for your replies. Special thanks to the Bodog representative here - what a surprise! :)
Pleasure!! Also, PM me if you have any questions and/or issues with CS and need another point of entry into the Bodog site you are playing with based on your location. I am in touch with the Bodog licensees on a daily basis and can get you answers quickly! :)
 

bj21abc

Well-Known Member
So....

you believe they are cheating to help you win, right ? Does that sound likely to you ?

1 in 2000 - not so unlikely - it happens. You have to be talking more SDs to be suspicious, and yet more SDs to be almost sure something is fishy. Just be grateful you are on the right side of the curve....

D.

Guynoire said:
I played 1000 hands at Bodog flat betting $1 a hand and using basic strategy. My expected loss was about $5 but I ended up positive $117.

That's over 3.5 standard deviations from the expected loss. The probability of something like that happening is less than 1 out of 2000. I'm not that lucky, Bodog must have cheated.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
bj21abc said:
So....

you believe they are cheating to help you win, right ? Does that sound likely to you ?

1 in 2000 - not so unlikely - it happens. You have to be talking more SDs to be suspicious, and yet more SDs to be almost sure something is fishy. Just be grateful you are on the right side of the curve....

D.
I think he was being sarcastic.
 

garygo

Active Member
The winning and losing streaks on Bodog BJ are ridiculously long. You might have a good run of winning hands (this happened to me), but I feel that is the catch. If you stay and continue playing, you will lose everything back pretty quickly. They gave you an impression it is easy to win at their table, which I deem as a bait to lure you spend more money there.

So it doesn't matter you win or lose - frequent long winning / losing streak suffices to pose a suspicion. Like I said, after long time play I feel their BJ is extremely unnatural / unreal.

Do a search on "Does Bodog cheat?" on the internet you will come across some interesting results. Here are a few I found:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071123134918AAqMYb9

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/Player+Reviews/Bodog/default.aspx

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/casino-complaints-non-bonus-issues/17998-bodog-blackjack-random-rigged.html

And many more.

Now I just realized not only me has this experience!

1) When we bet big, we lose quickly down to zero.

2) Very unnatural streaky win / loss.

3) Small cards seldom busts (with Bet365 they bust as expected), and often turn into 21 to beat the player.

4) Doubling is a very risky and scary thing to do with Bodog. Your 11 or 10 seldom gets a 10 and you double only to see you lose to dealer's 5 or 6. Happens way too often.

5) Considering their HE is lower than 0.36% according to their BJ rules (they even allow resplitting split hands), it becomes more suspicious.

6) Online BJ like Bet365 and land based casinos are REALLY very different.

Their BJ is UNREAL not for one night - it has been that way night after night, day after day since I first played there.

It is very legitimate to distrust their game.
 
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garygo

Active Member
Blue Efficacy said:
I think he was being sarcastic.
I dont think he was being sarcastic. You just dont get it.

His point is same as mine: frequent, extremely long winning streak is as suspicious as losing streak.

Very unnatural compared to other online BJ and land based casinos.
 

E-Spirit54

New Member
Hello All !!!

E-Spirit54 here again guys, Couple of things. First, ( Bet365 - Casino ) does not accept ( US players ! ) I think I,ve mentioned this before in this forum. Just an FYI....2nd, can anyone give me some insight on B.Jack software like ( BlackJackSniper ! ) its suppose to give you a winning edge. Is it illegal ? I have a ( Mac-computer - MAC-Os ) to be exact and this software is not compatible with my ( Safari-browser ) are there any other software packages of this type and, compatible with ( MAC-Os ) and, last here,s a couple more Casino,s to avoid because, they are Rigged against the player....BetOnline.Com, PitBullPoker.Com.....SBGGlobal.Com...Rushmore Casino.Com. These casino,s won,t allow you to win playing basic strategy. As mentioned on this forum these casino,s ..if you raise your bet, you will always lose. You will never have a long win streak before you have a long losing streak this means you will simply break even and, the longer you play the more you will lose....Hope this helps !!!..Lets keep each other informed..Okay !!! ....E-Spirit54
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
garygo said:
I dont think he was being sarcastic. You just dont get it.

His point is same as mine: frequent, extremely long winning streak is as suspicious as losing streak.

Very unnatural compared to other online BJ and land based casinos.
You're right. I don't get it. I am just a gullible moron who thinks that a large, well known online casino wouldn't cheat on a game where they already have the edge. :rolleyes:
 

garygo

Active Member
Blue Efficacy said:
You're right. I don't get it. I am just a gullible moron who thinks that a large, well known online casino wouldn't cheat on a game where they already have the edge. :rolleyes:
This does not alter the fact that you did misunderstand what Guynoire said, does it? ;)

Let me ask you this: if an online casino already has the house edge, why are there still so many rogue casinos around that want to rip people off?

And let me answer it for you: to make some money and to make a lot of money quickly are hugely different to some people. It is all about greed, which is part of human nature, like you and me, like some casinos that are run by real people.

As I said, I don't think it is a coincidence that so many players have complained about Bodog. There must be a reason. And we have this negative feeling becuase of our first hand experience, not assumption like yours (a large online casino will never cheat).

Now get it? :cool:
 
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sabre

Well-Known Member
Let me provide you guys the template for a proper argument that casino XYZ is cheating.

GOOD ARGUMENT
----------------

Casino XYZ offers a blackjack game with the following rules:
<LIST OF RULES>

Under these rules, <EVENT x> should occur with a frequency of <Freq 1>
<SHOW MATH>

Attached is a hand history of x hands played at Casino XYZ. Looking at this data, you can see that <EVENT x> occured with a frequency of <Freq 2>. This falls <# of standard deviations> outside of the bounds of expectation.
<SHOW MATH>

Given the improbability of experiencing a <# standard deviations> event, I therefore conclude that Casino XYZ is not dealing a fair game.


There are lots of people at this site that can help construct such an argument ... just as there are lots of people at this site who have no patience for people who think the above argument isn't necessary to substantiate a cheating claim.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
garygo said:
This does not alter the fact that you did misunderstand what Guynoire said, does it? ;)

Let me ask you this: if an online casino already has the house edge, why are there still so many rogue casinos around that want to rip people off?

And let me answer it for you: to make some money and to make a lot of money quickly are hugely different to some people. It is all about greed, which is part of human nature, like you and me, like some casinos that are run by real people.

As I said, I don't think it is a coincidence that so many players have complained about Bodog. There must be a reason. And we have this negative feeling becuase of our first hand experience, not assumption like yours (a large online casino will never cheat).

Now get it? :cool:
This ignores the fact that gamblers playing a negative expectation game will often try to deflect responsibility for their losing money.

If you are a frequent user of online blackjack, you are not an AP and likely approach BJ with the mindset of a gambler.

For a small operation, cheating would be beneficial, because you don't have a huge customer base and will get caught eventually, so you have to make what you can, while you can. With a large customer base, you are raking it in and don't want to risk it with cheating.

Now, I am not assuming that an operation such as Bodog's would never cheat. But it will take more than a few SD's to sell me, as these are well within the realm of possibility.

You do realize that online BJ moves a lot more quickly than real BJ, right? In other words, if you're going to lose 10 hands in a row it doesn't happen more often, but it is quicker and more blatant.
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
When you lose consistently, there are many possible reasons. One is certainly variance. Major possibilities also include that you are making errors in your strategy or that your strategy is flawed. The possibility that you were cheated is way down the list.
 

garygo

Active Member
Ok guys. I will not comment on this anymore as I've said enough. Just my thoughts and information to share after having played land based CSMs, online BJ like Bet365 and other, using the same bet spread and same strategy (perfect BS based on their rules), for continuously six months' time. Bodog BJ happens to be one of the worst.

If all of you have actually played Bodog BJ and said so, that's fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Unless members like Sabre want to encourage the "troll" thing, I will not comment again on this. :cool:
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
I have had horrendous luck at a particular casino near me. I use the same strategy and betting spread and the game has the same rules and pen as another game, which I do much better at.

The first casino MUST be cheating me.

Any other suggestion is simply naive.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Let's try to keep this discussion productive. If anyone has a legitimate complaint, in the format that sabre advised, they can post their results. No more hearsay, anecdotal evidence, unfounded accusations or unsubstantiated claims. Play nice fellas.

-Sonny-
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
Just thought I should add that personal attacks are not considered productive. Trolls are a bit like Gremlins. If you feed them after midnight they multiply. Before you know it you have trolls feeding other trolls. Even the gentle mogwais can turn into gremlins if they fall into the pool. Be cool, like Gizmo!

-Sonny-

 

garygo

Active Member
Obviously it is easy to delete someone's posts and lable him / her as "troll", when you find it very difficult, if not impossible, to prevail in the specific debate.

Personally I think this only shows weakness, not strength. ;)

I recommend you check carefully how many members here have done the personal attack and who did it first. Too much to ask?
 
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Kasi

Well-Known Member
garygo said:
Obviously it is easy to delete someone's posts and lable him / her as "troll", when you find it very difficult, if not impossible, to prevail in the specific debate.

Personally I think this only shows weakness, not strength. ;)

I recommend you check carefully how many members here have done the personal attack and who did it first. Too much to ask?
All I ask for is you post some logs of actual play lol.

Does BODOG not easily supply logs of actual play?

If you feel that I have somehow personally attacked you, please accept my apologies.

Basically, with the end-idea being you just might, who knows, learn a little about how to measure your "luck", be it "good" or "bad".

Who knows - such logs may actually prove your hypothesis. I have an open mind on the subject but, yes, experience tells me it's a very unlikely possibility.

Maybe just me but, if one makes an accusation as serious as "cheating", I pretty much must demand evidence lol. If you just want to just rant and rave about your "bad luck", that's fine with me.

One thing to accept "bad luck" but without accusations of "cheating".

Use the word "cheating" and you can pretty expect to be slammed to Honolulu and back without some concrete evidence.

At least by me anyway.

You got logs or you don't.

Which is it?

Don't you actually want to know whether you were merely reasonably "unlucky", and sh*t happens, vs it's a "cheating" casino"?

I don't mean anything against you. Trust me, I know all too well how emotionally painful a mere -2SD event is. That's about when my "emotional brain" tells me they must be "cheating". Until I go back and figure out there really was nothing unusual about it after all.

Try experiencing -3.8 SD or so over 8000 rounds. Trust me, you'll wish you had never been born. You will think a dull butterknife to both wrists after gouging out one eye would be preferable by far.

Yet, as much as I wanted to, I could never bring myself to accuse the casino of "cheating" because sh*t happens. Being down -3.8 SD's did not meet my personal threhold as sufficient evidence of casino cheating.

But you can your sweet ass I was keeping an actual log of all 8000 rounds along the way just so I could maybe prove a -SD event worthy of consideration.

I did, though, allow myself to drown in self-pity for counting myself amongst the very few, the most sorriest, the most unluclikest losers on planet earth who have ever played 8000 rounds.

I bitched to anyone would listen just how unlucky I was and issued "be careful" warnings to my internet-playing disciples who were only playing in the first place because I told them it was a "good" thing. I asked them to provide me with logs of their actual play so I could combine them with mine so I could figure out what the heck might be happening to my satisfaction.

Go figure, 40000 or so rounds later, as it actually happened to happen, results completely normal.

Apparently, the casino I suspected of possibly "cheating" me for 8000 rounds tiuns out were "cheating" themselves over the next 32000 rounds lol.

I had casinos that seemed to deal, say, an "Ace" up like every hand it seemed. And, yeah, they had actually deat an "ACE" up alot more than expected over the previous hands I had logs for. Not so much more it was way outside the "sh*t happens" criterion. But, out there on the curve, nonetheless. 1000 rds later, "dealer ACES up" is completely normal.

See what I mean?
 

garygo

Active Member
Kasi - thanks for your long "ranting and raving". Just kidding. :laugh:

As for logs - no I have not formed the habit of keeping logs so I can not offer you guys a specific figure. I do not know how to get BODOG to supply logs. Write to them?

My point is the "Bodog Pattern" occurs day after day, night after night for countless hands and it seems so robust to go beyond simply "pure bad luck". And there must be a reason why Bodog's BJ results are so different from others like Bet365 and land based casinos, which has caused so many complaints.

That's why I recommend professionals like this forum's top BJ players to review it again. Like you said, my hypothesis might be proved. It is better than no hypothesis at all. As for me, like I said, I am not interested to play again at Bodog.

I think by this post I have made a great contribution to this forum. Why?

1) If my allegation is mistaken and you've successfully proved Bodog is not cheating, then people's suspicion (not just me) about Bodog will be cleared and Bodog’s reputation further fortified (I think they will be happy to see this debate which yields a positive answer to their games).

2) If my argument is legitimate, then people will benefit greatly from this valuable information so as to avoid being ripped off by a big online gambling service.

So either way, my post is more worthwhile than you might think. ;)
 
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