# counting at a table question

#### oblate

##### Member
Right now I can count down a deck quickly using pairs. My question is about counting at the table. I've been dealing out 7 hands and practicing scanning that way and I was wondering do you guys count the pairs like if you see k 10 you say two move on or do you aknowledge the k 10 and then move on to find cards to cancel them out. I've been trying to cancel but sometime i carry two card over one gets cancelled then i move on and have to count 3 or 4 something. So my question to everyone is do you just go 2, 0, 2, 4, any pairs that come out you count or are you looking to cancel as much as possible out?

#### ChefJJ

##### Well-Known Member
oblate said:
Right now I can count down a deck quickly using pairs. My question is about counting at the table. I've been dealing out 7 hands and practicing scanning that way and I was wondering do you guys count the pairs like if you see k 10 you say two move on or do you aknowledge the k 10 and then move on to find cards to cancel them out. I've been trying to cancel but sometime i carry two card over one gets cancelled then i move on and have to count 3 or 4 something. So my question to everyone is do you just go 2, 0, 2, 4, any pairs that come out you count or are you looking to cancel as much as possible out?
The way I roll is to move on...you will find many times where you'll have a cancellation within 2 or 3 adjacent people's hands, so it just happens. But I go with keeping a running count after the initial 2 cards come out. Then I come back when the dealer deals out the hits.

That's the way I did it on the dining room table when I first started, got comfortable, and it was pretty much second-nature at the casino.

good luck

#### mdlbj

##### Well-Known Member
This one is easier to show you than to try to explain. I will do my best.

Using meaningful pairs is exactly that. For the sake of trying to explain it I will use HI-LO card values.

King comes out ignore it, 10 comes out ( a meaningful pair King and 10 ) that is minus 2 or m2. Ace comes out ignore it, 7 comes out ignore it. You are waiting for the next meaningful card with a +/- value. 5 comes out, you pair that with the Ace for zero ( they cancel each other out ) your count is still m2. You should not even register cards that = 0 for your counting system, you want to focus on the +/- cards.

This is a great drill for speed and accuracy. Better than thumbing through a deck. But its hard to do at work

Does this help?

#### Prince

##### Member
mdlbj said:
This one is easier to show you than to try to explain. I will do my best.

Using meaningful pairs is exactly that. For the sake of trying to explain it I will use HI-LO card values.

King comes out ignore it, 10 comes out ( a meaningful pair King and 10 ) that is minus 2 or m2. Ace comes out ignore it, 7 comes out ignore it. You are waiting for the next meaningful card with a +/- value. 5 comes out, you pair that with the Ace for zero ( they cancel each other out ) your count is still m2. You should not even register cards that = 0 for your counting system, you want to focus on the +/- cards.

This is a great drill for speed and accuracy. Better than thumbing through a deck. But its hard to do at work

Does this help?
Well i got good at doing that, but i found out it doesnt really help at a BJ table. Because you dont want to be looking at every card the dealer is dealing at the start. Just curious if you do it like that in a casino or just a drill?

#### mdlbj

##### Well-Known Member
I do it like that both in training and at the casinos. Next time you are playing make a note to watch what everyone else is doing. Most everyone will watch the cards being delt. They will give encouragement to people being dealt aces etc. Its somewhat natural to watch the cards. Just don't mouth out the count and you will be fine. Also, be sure to have a good time.

#### oblate

##### Member
mdlbj said:
This one is easier to show you than to try to explain. I will do my best.

Using meaningful pairs is exactly that. For the sake of trying to explain it I will use HI-LO card values.

King comes out ignore it, 10 comes out ( a meaningful pair King and 10 ) that is minus 2 or m2. Ace comes out ignore it, 7 comes out ignore it. You are waiting for the next meaningful card with a +/- value. 5 comes out, you pair that with the Ace for zero ( they cancel each other out ) your count is still m2. You should not even register cards that = 0 for your counting system, you want to focus on the +/- cards.

This is a great drill for speed and accuracy. Better than thumbing through a deck. But its hard to do at work

Does this help?
mmm i get what your saying but when i count as cards come out I start counting when the seocnd cards come in. I obviously cancel the king 3 lets say but i was wondering if lets say king 10 comes what ive been doing is seeing if i can cancel that but what happens sometime is lets say an ace 7 comes next so then I have to say -3 . Or lets say 5 3 comes out I carry it across and lets say ace 7 is next i cancel out lets say the 5 with the ace and carry the three across to try to cancel it out also but I'm thinking of just not doing it like that but instead saying plus two and etc. I just wanted to see how everone else does it.

#### mdlbj

##### Well-Known Member
Keep practicing it, its right there on the tip of your tongue. If you find it easier to start your count as the second players cards come out than do it that way. I use to do it that way until I found out about lightning fast dealers. It takes way less brain power to start at the initial cards. Continue to keep track during hits, splits etc. You know the count once the dealer is looking at you, now all you have to do is play perfect strategy. and continue to follow the running count until the round ends.

I use to have the dealer add up the cards for me and play dumb when I was having difficulties remembering the count and trying to add my cards at the same time. That is a dangerous place to be, you want to be super efficient by the time you sit at a table.

Check out the Professional Training Manual Provided by http://Blackjackinstitute.com, It has all the answers you are looking for and then some.

You get everything With the complete course. Pretty cheap to if you price some of the stuff they add in there.

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#### ChefJJ

##### Well-Known Member
oblate said:
mmm i get what your saying but when i count as cards come out I start counting when the seocnd cards come in. I obviously cancel the king 3 lets say but i was wondering if lets say king 10 comes what ive been doing is seeing if i can cancel that but what happens sometime is lets say an ace 7 comes next so then I have to say -3 . Or lets say 5 3 comes out I carry it across and lets say ace 7 is next i cancel out lets say the 5 with the ace and carry the three across to try to cancel it out also but I'm thinking of just not doing it like that but instead saying plus two and etc. I just wanted to see how everone else does it.
Like I said before, I dont start counting until the second players' cards come out. That gives me a chance to look away and do other stuff to break focus from the table, which works for me in two ways. 1- I can rest my eyes. 2- I am not being so obvious that I am counting the cards than if I were going around the table both times counting.

This works for me because many of the 2-card hands cancel out like you are saying. But if they dont, just count them across. In a rough estimation on a full table, you'll usually get a couple hands that cancel out, and you can further cancel a couple more out because one will be K,10 and another 7,2 or something.

#### p8ntballsk8r

##### Well-Known Member
I haven't seen it mention'd here, but I have a different way that works pretty well for me. During the first round as the cards are coming out, I mentally recognize them, but do not alter the RC until all 6(or how ever many players) cards come out. I then use the cancelling technique.

Then I do the same thing as the second set comes out, including the dealers whole card. Finally cound the hits and splits and your golden.

so if it comes out 5 3 J 4 Q A, they all cancel out, and you do this again with the next round.

Just be careful to recognize if you have a blackjack, or may get one. My friend was counting and was dealt a blackjack, and didn't notice because he was too busy counting. The dealer said 'looks like you're pretty excited' in a sarcastic tone. It was kinda funny and a good lesson learning experience for both of us. Also if you get an obvious hand, and you're trying to add the count in your head this can look bad.

#### oblate

##### Member
ChefJJ said:
Like I said before, I dont start counting until the second players' cards come out. That gives me a chance to look away and do other stuff to break focus from the table, which works for me in two ways. 1- I can rest my eyes. 2- I am not being so obvious that I am counting the cards than if I were going around the table both times counting.

This works for me because many of the 2-card hands cancel out like you are saying. But if they dont, just count them across. In a rough estimation on a full table, you'll usually get a couple hands that cancel out, and you can further cancel a couple more out because one will be K,10 and another 7,2 or something.

well alright what about king 10 and then 8 2 do you cancel lets say the king with the 2 diagonally and then carry the 10 over further cause the 8 is neutral or will you see the king ten say minus 2 then see if the two cancels some where else.

#### mdlbj

##### Well-Known Member
All this debate is fine and good but , one should not be making much of an effort trying to count at a casino table. You are surely playing at a huge disadvantage you are not already efficent at counting cards.

Counting should be almost subconsious, definitly routine. You should not be making mistakes at the table. Please forgive me if that sounds sarcastic, i just think you should be 100% before you wager your hard earned cash.

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#### oblate

##### Member
mdlbj said:
All this debate is fine and good but , one should not be making much of an effort trying to count at a casino table. You are surely playing at a huge disadvantage you are not already efficent at counting cards.

Counting should be almost subconsious, definitly routine. You should not be making mistakes at the table. Please forgive me if that sounds sarcastic, i just think you should be 100% before you wager your hard earned cash.
oo ive never counted at a casino before. I just meant counting in that format because it obviously is a little different counting the pairs when their laid out the way they would be at a table as opposed to counting a deck down in your hands. I've been practicing counting having the cards set up the way they would be at a table and was wondering about the different ways people go about it.

#### ChefJJ

##### Well-Known Member
oblate said:
well alright what about king 10 and then 8 2 do you cancel lets say the king with the 2 diagonally and then carry the 10 over further cause the 8 is neutral or will you see the king ten say minus 2 then see if the two cancels some where else.
The net of those two hands is -1...then I just move on to the next hand. That may cancel in the next player's hand, stay the same, or go further negative.

mdlbj, I wouldn't quite call this debate...he's just asking questions about how different people count at the table. It's all good--this is part of him being 100% before going to throw money on it.

good luck

#### mdlbj

##### Well-Known Member
I was just at lunch with a friend today going over this. I was showing him both how to thumb through a deck as well as dealing out 4 hands plus the dealers. He was asking why can I not just do it after they are all delt. I thought about it and said whatever is easiest for you. So I guess that is my answer for the question at hand.

#### SilentBob420BMFJ

##### Banned
oblate said:
Right now I can count down a deck quickly using pairs. My question is about counting at the table. I've been dealing out 7 hands and practicing scanning that way and I was wondering do you guys count the pairs like if you see k 10 you say two move on or do you aknowledge the k 10 and then move on to find cards to cancel them out. I've been trying to cancel but sometime i carry two card over one gets cancelled then i move on and have to count 3 or 4 something. So my question to everyone is do you just go 2, 0, 2, 4, any pairs that come out you count or are you looking to cancel as much as possible out?
dont "carry"

#### SilentBob420BMFJ

##### Banned
oblate said:
mmm i get what your saying but when i count as cards come out I start counting when the seocnd cards come in. I obviously cancel the king 3 lets say but i was wondering if lets say king 10 comes what ive been doing is seeing if i can cancel that but what happens sometime is lets say an ace 7 comes next so then I have to say -3 . Or lets say 5 3 comes out I carry it across and lets say ace 7 is next i cancel out lets say the 5 with the ace and carry the three across to try to cancel it out also but I'm thinking of just not doing it like that but instead saying plus two and etc. I just wanted to see how everone else does it.
lets say lets say lets say lets say lets say lets say

#### SilentBob420BMFJ

##### Banned
oblate said:
lets say the king with the 2 diagonally and then carry the 10 over further cause the 8 is neutral or will you see the king ten say minus 2 then see if the two cancels some where else.
u seem to be thinking about the card values.. they dont matter, a 2 3 4 5 6 it doesnt matter, its all +1.. this diagonal stuff doesnt make sense.. and also you seem to be obsessed with canceling.. matching 2 pairs up and using diagonals and canceling is a mistake.. if its 2,8 K,T you just say 1-2=-1 or -2+1=-1.. your basically trying to memorize all the neutrals, all the positives, and all the negatives and canceling when they match up, which will get you nowhere

#### schismist

##### Well-Known Member
No offense, Silent Bob, but it seems kind of odd to post three times on such a basic thread that was obviously over with 6 months ago... Oh I see, your posts weren't long after 4:20 PM!

#### SilentBob420BMFJ

##### Banned
schismist said:
No offense, Silent Bob, but it seems kind of odd to post three times on such a basic thread that was obviously over with 6 months ago... Oh I see, your posts weren't long after 4:20 PM!
i post in chunks; you will see my name all over the place for a couple hours but then maybe not for days.. and yes i guess i could put all 3 quotes into 1 post, but it essentially is the same thing.. its all about quoting, if i wasnt quoting i wud put all my thots on 1 post.. and ya, the 4:20 thing is gay, its just ive used this name since 7th grade (we were all gay back then) and i use it for everything so i can keep it simple.. same password for everything too.. oh and btw, nothing wrong with reviving old posts.. the same ppl are probably on here still, the info isnt "dated", and it would be foolish to have 2-3 threads with the same subject when you can just combine them all.. what is wrong with posting 5 things in a row or reviving old threads? if i didnt quote and just posted 5 things in a row, then ya, thats stupid, but im quoting, and i quote as i read, im not gonna read 50 posts then go back and decide which ones to reply to

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#### Mimosine

##### Well-Known Member
each person counts a little differently.

counting is a fairly data intensive thing to do. each person is wired a little different and therefore will pick up on different things. some people might be able to quickly cancel cards out from all over the table, while others will have to stick to two cards. some people might even wait until all 14 cards are dealt to count up the whole table in one fell swoop!

a lot of it has to do with perception and a lot of it has to do with how well practiced you are. the drills you do at home will help you to prepare for the real thing, but they aren't the real thing.

i suggest you practice every conceivable way you can dream up. when i got bored of counting down 1s, i started counting in pairs, then i would deal 3 at a time and count them up quick, then four, then i would deal two hands plus a dealer, then 3 hands, then i would count 3 hands and make index plays and play the dealer's hand out the way it should, then i would add a bet ramp. i kept cooking up drills until everything went like clockwork.

i got to a point where i could count down the table and recall the current RC and the RC from the previous round. when i get bored at the table, i would speed drill and wait right before the dealer would sweep up ALL the cards and i would quickly count all of them again and compare numbers.

the first time i played pitch, i had no trouble keep up with this training.