'Dice Control' Denounced

[ChefJJ]

If you've read (and I'm sure you have) the theory of dice setting, it states that some people, because of there own personal mechanics, tend to throw certain patterns that are not the "textbook" outcomes of the classic "V" setup. Every major league pitcher has a different "rip" on his fastball, some sink, some cut, and others jerk etc. So too with any human attempt at trajectory. I'm sure all you golfers can attest to that. So what I'm saying is that your throw may deviate from the desired textbook result, but may result in another consistent outcome; and since craps offers unlimited bets on any combination, you can take advantage of any combination or tendency.
As far as casino countermeasures, try setting the dice at the Atlantis in Reno. Ouch! My knuckles still hurt.

They whack ya' there huh?

I see what you are saying about the throwing style, but does that have anything to do with keeping dice on axis? You may keep them on axis through the air and after they hit the felt, but not after they hit the diamond foam...and they aint gonna let you not hit the back wall very often. And the chips on the table? Ok, forget that arguement, because you can play at a table with nobody on one side.

I feel your arguement...that is what they call "rythym rolling", but writing about it and theorizing about setting dice on axis, throwing them on that same axis, and keeping them on that axis as they hit the diamond wall--just a little bit different than doing it. And, I know, they say you only need to do it once in a while...but I'll keep beating the dead horse--every positively-influcenced roll is offset by a negatively-influenced roll. And that, my friends, we call random.

You probably think that I am bashing the topic, but I honestly like the whole idea. I wish it were reality, like Santa. But I've spent a lot of time on it and have nothing personal against the dudes that sell their systems. Hey, it's America and if you believe in it and can sell it to those willing to believe in it--more power to ya!

Good stuff man.

 

[ScottH]

Like dice influencing? If that is what you are saying, trust me I've been on that for years. Spending many hours researching it, testing, doing it at the casino, doing the numbers, theory, etc.--that comes from having an open mind and wanting it to work.

Now, if you're talking about video poker, pai gow, etc. I'm open minded, just not necessarily willing to play that stuff at this time

I do not believe in "dice influencing", so no. I wasn't referring to video poker or pai gow either. I don't want to be really specific, I was just throwing the idea out there.

 

[shadroch]

One of the easiest games to exploit,if you find the right circumstances is the Big Wheel.But the right circumstances occur pretty rarely it seems. I've never found one,after many hours of looking.

 

[rollem411]

I've been searching for info on dice controlling to find another game at the casino that you can actually beat long term so I dug this old thread up. I've been on other websites, but a few that you have to pay for, and I'm just not convinced enough to take it to that level yet. I've read a lot about the debate on dice control and just wondering if anyone, specifically chefJJ, but others please post, have you still been practicing this technique and experienced any success. I've been testing out the basics of it...like trying to control the rotation and keep it parallel to the table..., but really don't want to continue if an advantage really isn't in store for me.

I know Stanford Wong is well respected and if he wrote a book on it, I think to myself, "it must work" as well as other books and exerpts I've read from, should I say "reliable" people.

Just want to open this thread back up because it seemed like a good topic for discussion and a skill I'm thinking about trying to perfect so please shoot.

 

[moo321]

I've been searching for info on dice controlling to find another game at the casino that you can actually beat long term so I dug this old thread up. I've been on other websites, but a few that you have to pay for, and I'm just not convinced enough to take it to that level yet. I've read a lot about the debate on dice control and just wondering if anyone, specifically chefJJ, but others please post, have you still been practicing this technique and experienced any success. I've been testing out the basics of it...like trying to control the rotation and keep it parallel to the table..., but really don't want to continue if an advantage really isn't in store for me.

I know Stanford Wong is well respected and if he wrote a book on it, I think to myself, "it must work" as well as other books and exerpts I've read from, should I say "reliable" people.

Just want to open this thread back up because it seemed like a good topic for discussion and a skill I'm thinking about trying to perfect so please shoot.

It's probably not possible. Even if it is possible, it's a lot easier to beat blackjack and poker.

 

[Kasi]

I've been testing out the basics of it...like trying to control the rotation and keep it parallel to the table..., but really don't want to continue if an advantage really isn't in store for me.

I think it is probably an utter waste of time.

That said, what would be your goal? Try to never roll a 7? Something else?

Whatever it is, when you think you got it down, (you have a casino table to practice on? or maybe have a nother game in mind?) let us know the results of 10,000 throws. Heck, even 500-1000 for the fun of it.

And even if you achieved your goal, don't ask me what house edge you might have anyway lol.

 

[la_dee_daa]

i would say its possible for a very select few. a very select few...

i googled it grabbed a pair of monopoly dice and tried it... anyone who can get those dice to spin together has some talent of some form.

i know there was the one breaking vegas on the guys who did it does anyone know anything about that???

:cow:

 

[ChefJJ]

Rollem, since you asked...

Dice control/influencing/whatever you want to call it (let's use AP craps for this purpose) is possible, but with an enormously high degree of difficulty. To be completely honest, this concept probably works for the "experts" better by selling their books, seminars, etc. rather than real-life application...but I'm not saying that they can't actually do it. :joker:

The last few posts in this thread do bring up interesting points, so perhaps I'll give my 2 cents into those too, and put that out there:


It's easier to beat blackjack and poker.

I would definitely agree with that statement. However, an adequately-skilled AP craps player has the potential to gain about a 5% advantage over the house with core bets such as the Pass Line and Place bets.
Not to shamelessly promote my blog, but the link below shows the math behind a shooter's "skill" in keeping the dice on axis and the advantage with the various Place bets.

http://hothandcraps.blogspot.com/2007/11/place-bet-combos-and-dc.html

But this all goes back to the fact that gaining an advantage in craps centers around keeping the dice on the pre-set axis. And that is where we get into the possible vs. probable debate. And I'll be the first to say that this stuff is hard as hell.


I think it is probably an utter waste of time. What would be your goal? Try to never roll a 7? Something else?

Like I said, this is not as easy as counting cards, but I do enjoy the challenge. I've got no problem grinding out less than a 1% advantage in blackjack, but I'm also one to take up a challenge to pursue higher advantages in craps. It's all relative though.

The (my) goal is not to NEVER roll a 7...I say it is impossible to eliminate the 7from simplified on-axis shooting. For a bit of background, there are 6 pre-sets, and 3 of them reduce the 7 to a 2 in 16 chance, while the other 3 enhance it to a 4 in 16 chance.

My goal is to break the game down into two events: the comeout and the point. During the comout roll, I personally look to enhance the 7 and reduce the horn numbers. I want to get some natural winners in there. When the point is established, the goal is to minimize the 7, while enhancing the probability of the point number and/or selected Place bet numbers. I don't bet across, hardways, horn bets, etc. It's just not in my game. The 7 is inevitable, but my bottom line is to strike the numbers I'm betting on enough before the 7 shows up.

By the way, some pundits claim to be able to not only keep the dice on axis, but to keep them rotating together, thereby constraining the results to only 4 outcomes. I'm definitely not there yet, but understand the concept. It's acutally going to be my next topic on the ol' blog, but as far as doing it...I've gotta crawl before I walk.


You have a casino table to practice on?

A poor man's home craps table is creating a layout of your own to throw to...felt with appropriate padding underneath, and a diamond rubber wall in the back. It's definitely not a casino replica, but practice is only as good as your execution when the money is on the line.


Anyone who can get those dice to spin together has some talent of some form.

I think I've seen that show, and there is a copious amount of dramatization to it. If I can remember correctly, they were using a stop-dead-in-its-tracks type of throw that didn't rebound off the bottom of the back wall. Very advanced, but I'm not sure how realistic.


Regardless,

good luck

 

[rollem411]

It's probably not possible. Even if it is possible, it's a lot easier to beat blackjack and poker.

Im pretty much stuck on it because I am amazed about the topic of it and pretty much want it to be possible more than actually do it. Although, I def. do agree it is easier to beat blackjack and poker.

I think it is probably an utter waste of time.

That said, what would be your goal? Try to never roll a 7? Something else?

Whatever it is, when you think you got it down, (you have a casino table to practice on? or maybe have a nother game in mind?) let us know the results of 10,000 throws. Heck, even 500-1000 for the fun of it.

And even if you achieved your goal, don't ask me what house edge you might have anyway lol.

Well I would probably just use the all sevens dice set and the 3v. Maybe a few hardaways, but I am not that familiar on the probablities of everything so I can't answer for sure. Pretty much, I would use the comeout 7 and after that use the 3v.

i would say its possible for a very select few. a very select few...

i googled it grabbed a pair of monopoly dice and tried it... anyone who can get those dice to spin together has some talent of some form.

i know there was the one breaking vegas on the guys who did it does anyone know anything about that???

:cow:

As many say a very select few can do it, I think if you practice daily and put the effort and time in...maybe more than learning blackjack...it can be done. O yea, I've been practicing with the monopoly dice too, haha, but they don't seem to be as cut as square as casino dice so it might be a little harder with these.

Rollem, since you asked...

Dice control/influencing/whatever you want to call it (let's use AP craps for this purpose) is possible, but with an enormously high degree of difficulty. To be completely honest, this concept probably works for the "experts" better by selling their books, seminars, etc. rather than real-life application...but I'm not saying that they can't actually do it. :joker:

The last few posts in this thread do bring up interesting points, so perhaps I'll give my 2 cents into those too, and put that out there:


It's easier to beat blackjack and poker.

I would definitely agree with that statement. However, an adequately-skilled AP craps player has the potential to gain about a 5% advantage over the house with core bets such as the Pass Line and Place bets.
Not to shamelessly promote my blog, but the link below shows the math behind a shooter's "skill" in keeping the dice on axis and the advantage with the various Place bets.

You have a casino table to practice on?

A poor man's home craps table is creating a layout of your own to throw to...felt with appropriate padding underneath, and a diamond rubber wall in the back. It's definitely not a casino replica, but practice is only as good as your execution when the money is on the line.

I've also read that the "experts" get around a 5-7% edge over the house and that is what mostly interested me. I read that exerpt on Golden Touch about the Captain and it seemed pretty possible if you put the time and effort in. Plus I love the intensity of craps, but not enough to throw my money away on it.

Call me crazy, but I was thinking about calling the casino and see who manufactures their craps tables and get all the specifics on what kind of material and what not they use to build them. I would only need to make the one corner of the table so I don't see it being too much of a cost. And I of course would not tell them my real name, haa.

 

[QFIT]

Don't waste your time and money.

 

[ChefJJ]

Don't waste your time and money.

Or you could just do that :grin:

Why bother trying something when you can just go with the flow?


But yeah, Rollem, I'd be leary of dreams of big winnings and such. It's a challenge for sure, but something that I enjoy pursuing. Craps is a great game, and trying to gain an advantage is nothing short of mountain climbing. Some view it as a waste, some don't.

It's up to you :joker:

good luck

 

[aslan]

what is to say that your "off-rolls" aren't putting you on an axis that has more than the standard probability for a 7. (screwing yourself)

Screwing yourself, but only until you realize you have inadvertently discovered a way of tossing that has more than a standard probability for a 7. Once you realize that, you will know that you can influence the dice, just not in the way you thought. Besides taking advantage of being able to roll more than your share of sevens, which is a nice thing to have on your first roll, you can now experiment with ways to use your same toss, but with different beginning axes, to see what points you can influence. Any consistent influence on the dice whatsoever is exploitable. The question is, can one exercise a consistent influence on the dice?

 

[la_dee_daa]

i wonder if someone who lost their hand and had metal claw type on could rig it with a dice throwing mechanism to give it the exact same release every time. they might get an advantage. a little extreme but who knows. its kinda like people going in wheel chairs to hole card.

:cow:

 

[aslan]

I think if people are really serious about DC, they should do as Wong suggests. Practice for 6 months or more, keep track of their results on their laptop, and determine for themselves whether DC exists. If it does, don't tell anybody, just go for it. If it doesn't, well, come back here if they want and tell everyone they don't think it works.

 

[moo321]

i wonder if someone who lost their hand and had metal claw type on could rig it with a dice throwing mechanism to give it the exact same release every time. they might get an advantage. a little extreme but who knows. its kinda like people going in wheel chairs to hole card.

:cow:

Sounds like something that could be construed as a "device".

 

[aslan]

Sounds like something that could be construed as a "device".

Yeah! A "cheating" device! lol

 

[aslan]

A dice player told me that he made a lot of money cheating at craps. He said all he had to do was win the money. One of the dice dealers put crooked dice into the game. The player's job was to take the money out of the game. Of course it would be my luck for this to be the time when the casino had the dealer under strict surveillance and everyone gets busted! Honesty is the best policy!

 

[la_dee_daa]

Sounds like something that could be construed as a "device".

well if u didn't make it look like a "device", just a normal claw, i think there might be some problem denying someone with are artificial hand to play. It could be played off as discrimination or something.

:cow:

 

[moo321]

well if u didn't make it look like a "device", just a normal claw, i think there might be some problem denying someone with are artificial hand to play. It could be played off as discrimination or something.

:cow:

That's true. "Hey, I wanna play craps. Hang on, let me switch over to my dice control claw!" The next question, of course, is how do you get to use a dice control claw if you're not even missing a limb! I'm thinking fatsuit with an area for your real arm, and then the claw comes out, and you control it with a remote control.

 

[runningaces]

Which brings us to the next question: Say you have mastered controlled shooting in craps and can consistently make a profit, do you get 86'd? Serious question.