Dice pre-sets
- Thread starter rdorange
- Start date
ChefJJ
Well-Known Member
This looks like some sort of a "cheat sheet" card to identify which pre-sets to use. Judging by what is highlighted in red, these are the preferred arrangements...notice how rows #1-3 have combinations of 7 highlighted (for the come-out) and rows #4-6 have box numbers and harways highlighted.
Each of the 6 rows probably corresponds to the 6 sets, and the fraction-looking appearance probably means that the two numbers above the line are the numbers on top of the two dice, while those on the bottom would be on the side facing you.
I'm guessing that this is targeted for players who attempt to toss the dice with little or no bounce...trying to nail an exact combination.
good luck
Each of the 6 rows probably corresponds to the 6 sets, and the fraction-looking appearance probably means that the two numbers above the line are the numbers on top of the two dice, while those on the bottom would be on the side facing you.
I'm guessing that this is targeted for players who attempt to toss the dice with little or no bounce...trying to nail an exact combination.
good luck
callipygian
Well-Known Member
The numbers could also represent the "side" numbers and an attempt to roll the dice on-axis (such that the side numbers never appear).ChefJJ said:
ChefJJ
Well-Known Member
I don't think so...here's why:callipygian said:
Each of the 6 rows are missing a pair of numbers from each combination shown.
Row 1: No 3/4 on the left, no 3/4 on the right.
Row 2: No 2/5 on the left, no 2/5 on the right.
Row 3: No 1/6 on the left, no 1/6 on the right...etc.
The numbers that are missing are actually those that are on the z-axis...the axis one wants to keep the dice rotating around. So the "side" numbers will not be listed on the diagram (even though I've never seen this before in my life).
good luck
callipygian
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I didn't notice the double numbers in the last few rows (which is obviously impossible to be missing side numbers). The numbers above the line could represent the "face up" numbers and the numbers below the line could represent the "facing towards you" numbers on the side when held side by side.ChefJJ said:
I've never heard of anyone recently try to control dice by sliding them recently, I'm pretty sure they represent something to do with on-axis rolling.
Side note: Is the term "z-axis" typically used to refer to the rolling axis? In mathematics, z is usually used to refer to a vertical, not horizontal, axis.
Axis = seven
When any die is set, the axis is always a comination of two numbers that will always add up to seven. For example, the 3-V will always have some combination of 1 and 6, or 6 and 1, on one die and 2 and 5, or 5 and 2 on the other die. The first three rows did have some axis combinations that added up to seven. The first row red is actually a 3-V. The second row red could be a 2-V. The third row red could be the 2/3-V.
That is where my reasoning ended, because none of the numbers in black and none of the the numbers in rows 4-6 added up to seven and could not be an axis number.
I still don't understand of what use this would be someone. :joker:
When any die is set, the axis is always a comination of two numbers that will always add up to seven. For example, the 3-V will always have some combination of 1 and 6, or 6 and 1, on one die and 2 and 5, or 5 and 2 on the other die. The first three rows did have some axis combinations that added up to seven. The first row red is actually a 3-V. The second row red could be a 2-V. The third row red could be the 2/3-V.
That is where my reasoning ended, because none of the numbers in black and none of the the numbers in rows 4-6 added up to seven and could not be an axis number.
I still don't understand of what use this would be someone. :joker:
callipygian
Well-Known Member
Well, you could always ask ...rdorange said:
(Dead link: http://crapsbyfingers.com/default.aspx)
Bookmark
Hey JJ, What you said might be. There are combos in the red that only add up to points. Some times the top is a point and the side facing you is a 2 or 12. The sixth row is strange with several 3's and 11's. The part that confuses me is the relationship of the red to black in a single row!
And now, the rest of the story.....
I was at a craps table several years ago. I was just beginning to learn and was practicing setting the dice and (trying) a controlled throw. I had several terrific turns with the dice. My brother was there and was doing similar, by setting and practicing his throw. I feel that I have better sets and better grip, and he has a better throw. Anyway, after we finished and left, we went to eat. On our way out, this (old) man approached us and asked about our throws and where we had learned. He was especially interested in my sets. He gave me this card and said to look for him later at the craps table. He said he wanted to talk more and discuss sets and throws. Needless to say, we didn’t make it back to the tables till the next day, and he was nowhere to be found. So, not being able to make heads or tails of this card, I have been using it as a bookmark for several years. He did a real good job of laminating and it is just the perfect size. The other day while practicing my sets I thought about the card and pulled it out to try and figure it again.
And now you know, the rest of the story….:laugh:
Hey JJ, What you said might be. There are combos in the red that only add up to points. Some times the top is a point and the side facing you is a 2 or 12. The sixth row is strange with several 3's and 11's. The part that confuses me is the relationship of the red to black in a single row!
And now, the rest of the story.....
I was at a craps table several years ago. I was just beginning to learn and was practicing setting the dice and (trying) a controlled throw. I had several terrific turns with the dice. My brother was there and was doing similar, by setting and practicing his throw. I feel that I have better sets and better grip, and he has a better throw. Anyway, after we finished and left, we went to eat. On our way out, this (old) man approached us and asked about our throws and where we had learned. He was especially interested in my sets. He gave me this card and said to look for him later at the craps table. He said he wanted to talk more and discuss sets and throws. Needless to say, we didn’t make it back to the tables till the next day, and he was nowhere to be found. So, not being able to make heads or tails of this card, I have been using it as a bookmark for several years. He did a real good job of laminating and it is just the perfect size. The other day while practicing my sets I thought about the card and pulled it out to try and figure it again.
And now you know, the rest of the story….:laugh:
ChefJJ
Well-Known Member
Since sliding is cheating, you are right about that.callipygian said:
I guess I should clarify my separation of "on-axis rolling" and what you might call synch rolling. Synch rolling is where the player throws the dice, trying to keep the numbers on the top of each die together throughout the flight and travel of the dice. Doing so will produce only 4 combinations of numbers...but if one of the two dice "pitches" and rolls an extra quarter-turn, those pre-determined 4 numbers are changed altogether.
What I aim for is the on-axis rolling where all that matters to me is keeping the dice on that pre-set axis. Successfully done, there are 16 rather than 36 possible outcomes of the dice. As you can see from the card, there are 16 entries for each of the 6 rows: 16 combinations for each of the 6 pre-sets.
Therefore, I can almost assure you guys that this card is showing the two top numbers above the line, and the two numbers on the front (facing you). Obviously, as RD pointed out, the opposite side of each die complements and adds up to 7...so the total on the bottom and opposite side of the pair are the same as the top and front, respectively.
In my opinion, keeping the dice from pitching or double-pitching is more difficult than it needs to be. There are 3 pre-sets that are complete junk, leaving 3 more: 1 for the come-out, and 2 for the point-cycle depending on your point. Following that simple method, and by making only the core bets, a player can gain over a 5% advantage in the long run just by keeping the dice on axis about 25-33% of the time.
good luck
one die pitch
JJ, you should find this interesting....
I have noticed that my results over time have changed, thus slowly changing my long run/term results. To see the immediate effect, I have started my tracking over, a new start. My throw/toss has evolved and started to change somewhat. The end result is one die appears to have pitched by the the end of roll. According to my records. I have started to use some of the same sets as before, but prior to the throw, I pitch/rotate one die, across axis. The end result most of the time puts me back on my original %...
Imagine that!
JJ, you should find this interesting....
I have noticed that my results over time have changed, thus slowly changing my long run/term results. To see the immediate effect, I have started my tracking over, a new start. My throw/toss has evolved and started to change somewhat. The end result is one die appears to have pitched by the the end of roll. According to my records. I have started to use some of the same sets as before, but prior to the throw, I pitch/rotate one die, across axis. The end result most of the time puts me back on my original %...
Imagine that!
Axis??
Hey JJ, something to throw out there that I discovered recently. I have not heard any one mention this before but it is something that I do! I put my pre-sets on the rear of the die facing me instead of on top. Here is why….
Get a set of dice out and set for the 3-V this way.. Left die: 3 on top, and 2 on the back (facing you) with 1 and 6 on axis. Right die: 3 on top, and 6 on the back (facing you) with 2 and 5 on axis. Now, take one die, (either one) and rotate it on axis. After one die, or the two die roll one each or just one die for two additional rotations, the result will always be SEVEN! BUT, the same set.. Left die: 2 on top, and 3 on the back (facing you) with 6 and 1 on axis. Right die: 6 on top, and 3 on the back (facing you) with 5 and 2 on axis. Now roll one die as before, two times, No seven. As most shooters use the top numbers as a gauge or place to put their set, wouldn‘t it be more productive for a DC or DI to set his dice so the actual pre-set is on the rear faces instead of on top?? :cool2:
Hey JJ, something to throw out there that I discovered recently. I have not heard any one mention this before but it is something that I do! I put my pre-sets on the rear of the die facing me instead of on top. Here is why….
Get a set of dice out and set for the 3-V this way.. Left die: 3 on top, and 2 on the back (facing you) with 1 and 6 on axis. Right die: 3 on top, and 6 on the back (facing you) with 2 and 5 on axis. Now, take one die, (either one) and rotate it on axis. After one die, or the two die roll one each or just one die for two additional rotations, the result will always be SEVEN!
BUT, the same set.. Left die: 2 on top, and 3 on the back (facing you) with 6 and 1 on axis. Right die: 6 on top, and 3 on the back (facing you) with 5 and 2 on axis. Now roll one die as before, two times, No seven. As most shooters use the top numbers as a gauge or place to put their set, wouldn‘t it be more productive for a DC or DI to set his dice so the actual pre-set is on the rear faces instead of on top?? :cool2:
ChefJJ
Well-Known Member
RD...good to hear from you! Hope all is well. :cool2:
As far as your question goes, I can't honestly answer it. The way I approach the pre-set is without any regard to what numbers are on top...I'm concerned with the numbers on the rotational axis as to what is the intended set (maybe this sentence is mostly true because I do avoid setting the 7 on top when other players are at the table...bad vibes you could say).
The bottom line is to go with what consistently works for you. That's why I roll the way I do....cash :grin:
good luck :cool2:
As far as your question goes, I can't honestly answer it.
The way I approach the pre-set is without any regard to what numbers are on top...I'm concerned with the numbers on the rotational axis as to what is the intended set (maybe this sentence is mostly true because I do avoid setting the 7 on top when other players are at the table...bad vibes you could say). The bottom line is to go with what consistently works for you. That's why I roll the way I do....cash :grin:
good luck :cool2: