First steps to ap

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#1
I have been reading the context of the recent threads being posted. I've noticed alot of the threads are asking basic questions about counting in general. I not trying to steer people away from this site but geez doesn't anyone read books anymore. I wouldn't walk into a algebrae class and ask questions if I didn't know basic math. If anyone wants advice, great there is a alot of good advice on this site from alot of good aps but you should pick up a few books that give you the basics and practice what you read. There is a few threads here that dealt with what books to read. Am I alone with this thought or what?
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#2
Well, I originally found this site a few years ago when I googled "basic strategy" after hearing about it on TV, so I was a total noob then.

I didn't bother with the forums, or with even thinking about card-counting, at the time.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#3
I'm a big fan of RTFM or more nicely Read The Manual first (maybe RTMF :) ) then ask questions. For me the best is people who want to learn KO but REFUSE to buy the $13 book.

I'm an amateur at best, but at least I've read a few BJ books and i prefer to get the basics under control before coming on here and asking specifics or things that piqued my curiosity durring study.

FYI: i've read: KO-Blackjack, BJBluebook II, Blackjack Attack, Play BJ like the Pros, Beat the Dealer, UBZII, and for fun Bringing Down the House. The bare minimum people should read before asking questions is BJBluebook II, even if they only read the first 6 or so chapters (less than 100 pages, and a fast easy read at that with a ton of basic and intermediate information). Or at the very least read 5 or 6 links from the great "Free counting resources on the Web" link. Or USE THE DAMN SEARCH FEATURE ;)
 

eps6724

Well-Known Member
#4
Not to disagree about reading, but one thing this site has helped ME in is to avoid a lot of-shall we say-trash books. I was (and still am) more than willing to learn and search things out myself, but there IS a lot of stuff out there that I NOW know is crap.

I am not defending anyone asking any questions, because I DO think that there are times that all we need is someone willing to point us in the right direction. And really, how many of us knew what questions to ask to keep from getting sucked into a get-rich-quick-this-is-a-piece-of-cake scheme?

When I ask questions, all I really want to know is where to start-or, to see if someone else has the same questions and might already have the answer. Sort of like NOT re-inventing the wheel!

Just my thoughts!
-EPS
 

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#5
steps

I would agree that everyone has different ways of obtaining information. I just wondered why some of the posters seem to have limited knowledge of the game itself. I'm not ragging on them just wondered if they bother to read any books first. I myself still reread books and glean information that I understand better the next time I go to use it. I also use the books for refference source. blackchipjim
 

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
#6
When I found the site, I was at the stage of "okay, I know about +1 -1 and that, but what do I actually DO with the count". Rather than posting a question I knew was either: a) extremely basic or b) extremely secret, I read through the rest of the board. Needless to say, my questions were answered, and I was left with knowledge and some real questions.

Not everyone is going to do this. The reasons are many-- aren't good at digging for information, not used to forums, impatient, ill informed, etc, etc, etc.

So they ask. The users have made themselves available to be asked questions, with the caveat that they aren't obligated in any way to answer. It's a discussion group, not a service.

Most of the questions asked can be answered by the asked themselves. The information is there, they just need to put in the effort to find it. A forum, after all, is not a good place for long-term storage and organization of data. There are steps that can be taken to make the basic information more easily accessible-- but is that desirable?

People put up FAQs, wikis, documents, and how-tos all the time, for information people are commonly looking for. Baking, car repair, computer maintenance, and so forth. All skilled knowledge in one way or the other, but knowledge so common and desired that people would rather put it out there than having to be available to be asked.

Do APs want that? APing seems to have a-- hrm-- layer of semi-transparent secrecy about it. Let's admit it, card counting is no secret. Everyone's heard of it. Many know the details of it. Some know how to do it. Given the amount of new users who ask questions, there's an ongoing desire to learn about it. And given the number of helpful APs here, there's a desire to teach about it.

Where's the balance. At one end, you have a fully open forum with APs freely giving out answers to any questions asked of any user, new or old. On the other end of the continuum, you have a locked, invite only forum where only vetted proteges are allowed, and information isn't shared outside of the community. Where on that line would the community like to fall?

I understand the need for some discretion. HiLo isn't a secret. The casinos know about it. Everyone knows about it. To a lesser extent, so is holecard strategy (play deviations, sloppy dealers), and card tracking (deck estimation, neat dealers). As for the "secret" stuff-- well, any technique sufficiently advance to garner a huge advantage with minimal effort probably should be kept a secret until such point as the casinos diminish the gains-- at which point it should be thrown into the public knowledge pool so others can get what they can from it-- or improve it to secrecy again.

Keep in mind, though, security through obscurity doesn't work. If you can think it and do it, it can be discovered again-- by another AP, or by the casino security team reviewing their tapes. Just not talking about it isn't a foolproof way to stay hidden.

Personally, I think the site should have a wiki on it that covers (at least) the basics. Articles about card counting, Thorpe, primers on the different systems, reviews on the books (good and bad), definitions of advanced plays, and so forth. This information has already been discussed ad nausium over and over. Rather than post it again for the next noob, put it together from forum postings and user input, and have a permanent, managed reference.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#7
halcyon1234 said:
Personally, I think the site should have a wiki on it that covers (at least) the basics. Articles about card counting, Thorpe, primers on the different systems, reviews on the books (good and bad), definitions of advanced plays, and so forth. This information has already been discussed ad nausium over and over. Rather than post it again for the next noob, put it together from forum postings and user input, and have a permanent, managed reference.
Like a sticky thread called "FREE COUNTING RESOURCES ON WEB" in the card counting forum? ;)

-Sonny-
 

NDN21

Well-Known Member
#8
But what books to read? That's the question right there that this forum answers.

And some are forgetting one thing, books cost money while this website is free!

Actually the noobs are following the correct process by coming here (or other websites) FIRST.

The web has replaced the library as the first step in researching a subject. In that context the noobs are performing correctly, searching the web first then seeking other avenues of information.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#9
NDN21 said:
And some are forgetting one thing, books cost money while this website is free!
i politely disagree. spending $20-40 on books is affordable to anyone who OWNS a computer and PAYS an equivalent amount per month for internet access. With an exception being for a poor college student who is using a lab computer to post here. either way if you can't scrape together $30 for some used BJ books then you don't have enough money to be going to a casino in the first place.

As an example, if one spent $13-20 on KO blackjack (or a KISS3, or a HiLO book), and maybe $5-15 on decks of playing cards - if they were so inclinded that would be all they would need to get started. no these things wouldn't answer all the necessary questions for every single person, but if you're interested in ap BJ even as a hobby 'investing' $30 is really quite reasonable. furthermore, i really can't understand why someone who is really eager to learn this stuff wouldn't be willing to do a little research on their own - even if it wasn't free. :eek:
 

eps6724

Well-Known Member
#11
Mimosine said:
As an example, if one spent $13-20 on KO blackjack (or a KISS3, or a HiLO book), and maybe $5-15 on decks of playing cards - if they were so inclinded that would be all they would need to get started. no these things wouldn't answer all the necessary questions for every single person, but if you're interested in ap BJ even as a hobby 'investing' $30 is really quite reasonable. furthermore, i really can't understand why someone who is really eager to learn this stuff wouldn't be willing to do a little research on their own - even if it wasn't free. :eek:
BUT the benefit of a forum like this is that a novice (like me) can get an idea of just what books to spend that $30.00 on. Or, he could go blindly into a bookstore and well blow 2-3-even 4 times that amount on trash, which does just what the book promises-making someone rich with almost no work! (Unfortunately, it's the author of some mindless system composed by an aardvark). Once the difference is learned, it's easy to justify spending that amount on a book by Snyder, or Renzey, or someone of that ilk. And well we should! What a site like this does, while giving out information also directs people to the books written by-shall we say 'Masters'-and keeps us from spending money on the shills.

Also, I believe that the people who are truely interested WILL take the knowledge gleaned here and use it to continue on. While there is a TON of kknowledge to be gleaned here, having a book in one's hands enables one to read-again and again-each time getting more and more out of it. Those who are looking for a "quick fix" will never do much more than spin their tires. I believe these are the same people who will never put forth the effort to learn and practice to actually TAKE them to the next level. Basically, people are lazy and when they realize that it's work, aren't going to buy a book, anyway.Those wanting to truely learn I believe will seek out the books and knowledge. Here is just a place to start.

Plus, as I read these posts, I try to anticipate what some of the more knowledgeable players will respond with, kind of like my own personal review session. And if I don't understand a post, I can ask for clarification. Even when I read things, sometimes it just doesn't connect.

Just my opinion. Now back to practice. And reading.
-EPS
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#12
I don't mind total newcomers showing up if they are here to learn. But when people start posting off the wall supposedly true experiances about fantastic wins or encounters with seductive casino agents,then enough is enough.
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#15
dacium said:
noob threads are better than this thread... its not like there are a large number of topics that it causes a problem.
Agreed. There's no need for some to be assholes towards people with legitimate questions, whether they may seem rudimentary to some.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#16
ChefJJ said:
Agreed. There's no need for some to be assholes towards people with legitimate questions, whether they may seem rudimentary to some.
but this isn't what we're talking about here. as an example: a few weeks ago there was someone on here asking about when to increase his bets using KO (or something similar), and it quickly became clear that they hadn't read KO, that they knew next to nothing about KO, that they were trying to use KO in a casino, and that they wanted all these trivial questions answered and flat out rufused to buy the book. is that what this forum should be about?

are these legitimate questions? i don't think so.

as opposed to, hey i can't remember all these Keycount index numbers, could i round them all up to the pivot point? how much edge would i lose if i stood on 16 v 10 at +4 instead of at 0? why isn't splitting 10s included in KO? i can't for the life of me memorize soft doubling, HELP!?

of course if people have basic questions this is the place for them (is this a game worth playing? what books do i need? what is the best system for me? i don't understand this play? i saw this wild ass play what was this person doing? what should my bet ramp be? ad naseum), but if there is someone on here asking for the I18 for KO, the bet ramp, the IRC KC and PP for a 6D game, well then they clearly don't know jack$hite about KO - and i don't think it is a good use of anyones' time - and it might violate copyright law, to recount all these little details for someone so lazy and inept.

this isn't an issue of being an a$$hole. it's an issue of common sense, and in asking for advice from people who might know more than you about something ---- maybe they should take it. or why bother asking in the first place?
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#17
The board led me to my first book purchase

Mimosine said:
i politely disagree. spending $20-40 on books is affordable to anyone who OWNS a computer and PAYS an equivalent amount per month for internet access. With an exception being for a poor college student who is using a lab computer to post here. either way if you can't scrape together $30 for some used BJ books then you don't have enough money to be going to a casino in the first place.

As an example, if one spent $13-20 on KO blackjack (or a KISS3, or a HiLO book), and maybe $5-15 on decks of playing cards - if they were so inclinded that would be all they would need to get started. no these things wouldn't answer all the necessary questions for every single person, but if you're interested in ap BJ even as a hobby 'investing' $30 is really quite reasonable. furthermore, i really can't understand why someone who is really eager to learn this stuff wouldn't be willing to do a little research on their own - even if it wasn't free. :eek:
When I first found this site, I asked a lot of dumb questions I guess, but I didn't have a clue which were the right books to buy. Also, other forum members were telling me to search for threads on my topic, and they even helped me with the searches. I really appreciated their help, and yes, I probably should have done it on my own, but I wasn't all that familiar with how boards worked. Someone suggested that I learn the KO system, so I bought the book and put it into practice, but I am glad I didn't pick a system on my own. I probably would have picked the most complicated system, then after trying to learn it, given up in disgust. The helpfulness of the forum members is why this is such a terrific board. I feel I have unlimited resources in the friendly advice so readily available here. And I have now purchased four books in total based on the good advice I have received here, and feel I have saved good money by not depending solely on my own uninformed judgement in deciding which books to buy.

I am truly indebted to the people of this board. The bottom line is, when I become an experienced player, I will always be happy to help noobs with their sometimes dumb and simplistic questions and try to lead them on a path that will result in their future enjoyment and success playing the game of Blackjack.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#18
When I first came here, looking for info on counting, I serached the archives and read previous posts for many weeks before posting my first message.

Just about every conceivable newbie question has already been asked and answered. I suppose some people don't mind doing a little research, while others prefer the spoonfeeding approach.
 

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
#19
Sonny said:
Like a sticky thread called "FREE COUNTING RESOURCES ON WEB" in the card counting forum? ;)
Close. =) The sticky is very useful (and woefully underused by noobs, I would hazard to guess). But it isn't quite the same as a wiki article. The sticky is a link to other resources. The article is a resource itself. If someone were to search for, say, "Illustrious 18", and the sticky had a link to an article about the I18, they might miss it. But if there was an article itself about the I18, the search would find it (and consequently link them to other articles of interest).

And threads themselves being articles are useful, but:

Aslan said:
and they even helped me with the searches
Therin lies the problem. Threads fall off the map. If they aren't bumped or stickied, they will get buried over time. Someone might find it by reading every thread, or at least the 12 months of most recent ones-- but probably not. They can use the forum search tool, but as anyone who has tried that for a very specific piece of information can atest, it ain't no Google. That's because the information itself is lost amongst the discussion. eg: I may want to know a tiny piece of information that's a clarification of the Grifter's Gambit system. But if I Forum Search for GG, I'll get hundreds of threads. If I forum search for Grifter Gambit proper spread, I'll narrow it down a bit-- but which of the many threads is the one I want? In what context is the answer? Will I have to read an entire 20 page discussion to get the one post I need?

Threads are poor long-term data storage choices, because they grew organically. They started off as a topic, gained input, possibly changed course, and ended. There are probably tons of threads with useful information whose titles have nothing to do with that information itself. Whereas a Grifter's Gambit article would have all the information about the GG-- and can be easily updated with new tidbits as discussion draws them out.

And stickies don't scale well. If you tried to sticky every useful piece of information, you'd either end up with the entire first two pages of the forum being eaten up by Stickies, or you'd end up with one bloated, overloaded stickies that's just a whole bunch of links to other threads-- and once again, you lose the searchability of it.
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
#20
Mimosine said:
are these legitimate questions? i don't think so.
If they aren't "legitimate", then you're right. But I don't think asking questions is that much of an imposition on a website bulletin board. My opinion.

Some act like noobie questions require them to get off their high horse...they need to put all this in perspective. We're not discussing cancer research or the miracle energy source, we're talking casino blackjack. Love the game, but it is what it is.

good luck
 
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