For our resident experts

Bojack1 said:
That has alot to do with great players not being able to convey their special talents and ahtleticism to those they are teaching. The superior gifted athlete very rarely can make other players they teach as great as they were. There is a certain disconnect between greatness and average, even on the pro level in sports. A grinder who needed to work harder and truly learn the game just to compete at a reasonably high level usually makes the best coach. That being said, I believe in terms of AP blackjack, the better the player, the better the potential of learning from them. Learning what makes a winning player and how to accomplish that, in my opinion is best learned by those "who do". Anyone can learn the basics from a book or from someone who knows no more than what they themseves read from a book. Theory of BJ is a great place to start learning, but practical teaching from good experienced players that have learned and mastered how to win at this game beyond theory, well thats pretty beneficial.
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It wasn't a real good analogy by me, I'll admit, and I agree with most of your thoughts on this. However, let me add this. "Discipline" is a huge word in both sports and advantage play. It's imperative to have it in either world. If you know what you should do and many times do the opposite, you aren't the "best" player but you could still be a good teacher.

BillyC1
 
Bojack1 said:
Yes for the most part I agree with what you say. It is very important to learn something from somebody who actually already knows it and can in some capacity use that skill to accomplish succeeding at the goal at hand. Monetary accomplishment is not always the best gauge to determine this in the case of AP blackjack. There are many big bankrolled players that win large amounts of money just because they play large but their skills are not superior by any means. In reality given a smaller bankroll their wins may be be far less than those with similar bankrolls and superior skills. Truth is, being a great player doesn't mean you're a rich player, as well as being a mediocre player does not mean you can't make lots of money playing. Its the players that can leverage the most of what they have that really are the ones that you can learn the most from if you get the chance. Of course being highly skilled with a large bankroll would be an ideal situation, but in many cases that takes more than just blackjack knowledge to attain.
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As usual there is great wisdom in Mr Bo's words. In this case the "Monetary accomplishment is not always the best guage" line. Unless you know the circumstances and details of one's play history the results don't mean that much. For example a very skillful and experienced player who just didn't play that much this year might not have a big "win" for the year, while someone like myself, with modest ability and skill, can say I made XX amount of dollars or units, and those results may sound good until you realize that I spend far greater time and effort accomulating those results than most player, so the results aren't nearly that impressive,:eek: Not that they were impressive to begin with. :laugh: And then of course you have the problem that you can't verify any of this. We have had a rash of posters in the second half of this year, or sometimes the same poster using multiple names/handles making some pretty unrealistic claims about his results and methodology. :(

The best thing to do is read through the threads and particpate in the chats and it won't take you long to figure out who knows what they are talking about and you won't need to see their balance sheet to figure it out. Scouting the message board isn't all that different than scouting blackjack games. :)
 
shadroch said:
Do you find yourself amusing in real life, as it doesn't seem to translate to the internet very well?
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Hmmmmm Shadroch.....:laugh::laugh:
Remember the movie " Fargo"? I was raised less than a hundred miles from that town.
We all talk funny ,,, don't ya know....... Kinda ignorant.... Hell we even had hand me down clothes......Good thing i was the oldest of 7 of us kids.....Dam ass hard work being raised on a farm...
To answer your question............hell yes i amuse myself everyday....".I made it out".....
I wake up a happy camper every friggin day....... Some people like my humor.....and ...well,,,,,some don't:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I just try to bring a little humor to this site.........my brand of humor .....and yea maybe smidgeon of a political overtone once in a while.......
Shadrock ?????? you have any humor in your life???????
Like ZG says.........it is a country thang!!!!!!!!
Sorry it took me so long to answer your question Shad......I've been out plying my trade at an undisclosed location.....
Oh yea Shadroch......one other thing.......My AP mind works with nothing but "UNITS" I eat , think and dream units...

Machinist
 
Macho

Machinist said:
Hmmmmm Shadroch.....:laugh::laugh:
Remember the movie " Fargo"? I was raised less than a hundred miles from that town.
We all talk funny ,,, don't ya know....... Kinda ignorant.... Hell we even had hand me down clothes......Good thing i was the oldest of 7 of us kids.....Dam ass hard work being raised on a farm...
To answer your question............hell yes i amuse myself everyday....".I made it out".....
I wake up a happy camper every friggin day....... Some people like my humor.....and ...well,,,,,some don't:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I just try to bring a little humor to this site.........my brand of humor .....and yea maybe smidgeon of a political overtone once in a while.......
Shadrock ?????? you have any humor in your life???????
Like ZG says.........it is a country thang!!!!!!!!
Sorry it took me so long to answer your question Shad......I've been out plying my trade at an undisclosed location.....
Oh yea Shadroch......one other thing.......My AP mind works with nothing but "UNITS" I eat , think and dream units...

Machinist
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Macho, most here appreciate you, I for sure do.:1st:

Some here may suffer from certain problems that come with growing old, like, ED, Enlarged Prostate, Chronic Constipation, and Hair loss, that make them very irritable and unhappy, grouchy. For those that fall in this category, and if it is affecting their disposition, I would suggest they counsel with a reputable MD as there are soloutions to all these problems:)

;):grin:

CP
 
Thread

As to the thread, when I started out in business some 28 years ago I was always fretting over what my competition was doing,,a friend who was in the same business told me one day, "Panther, stop worrying about what your competition is doing and start focusing on what YOU are doing" That simple message changed the way I have handled my business from that point on.

Tall Man, what other people are making has no effect on your game, what you do affects your game, see the above quote.

CP
 
creeping panther said:
As to the thread, when I started out in business some 28 years ago I was always fretting over what my competition was doing,,a friend who was in the same business told me one day, "Panther, stop worrying about what your competition is doing and start focusing on what YOU are doing" That simple message changed the way I have handled my business from that point on.

Tall Man, what other people are making has no effect on your game, what you do affects your game, see the above quote.

CP
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That is for sure, thats it not my business to know how much one has made or is making. However, i do not agree with with not knowing or appreciating how others are doing in this game we love. This board is for sharing ideas, concepts, and stories. My question on this thread started with asking our resident experts, and we know who they are or believe they are, how have they done in lifetime play with all the different levels of counting and advanced techniques and 100 trillion hands simed. I do enjoy the game and the challenge but i look at it as an investment. Do i care who knows a "level 10", shuffle tracking, ace tracking, 200 indices, who is (-) in lifetime play or the one who has years of experience, uses good AP, have they keen intuition, etc and has done very well. I personally like the experienced person with the results. In life, we get paid on our performance. Regarding competion as a business. You can either believe you are successful, whatever successful means to you, or know and compare yourself and your business among others in your industry. Are you a small fish in a big pond or large fish in a small pond. In my business, there is NO competition. That would be a lack mentality. I live by the law of abundance. Friendly competion among peers is very healthy and i would not want to live in my own little bubble. I hope that clears some things up and i dont mean any disrespect, thanks Panther
Tallman
 
Bojack1 said:
Yes for the most part I agree with what you say. It is very important to learn something from somebody who actually already knows it and can in some capacity use that skill to accomplish succeeding at the goal at hand. Monetary accomplishment is not always the best gauge to determine this in the case of AP blackjack. There are many big bankrolled players that win large amounts of money just because they play large but their skills are not superior by any means. In reality given a smaller bankroll their wins may be be far less than those with similar bankrolls and superior skills. Truth is, being a great player doesn't mean you're a rich player, as well as being a mediocre player does not mean you can't make lots of money playing. Its the players that can leverage the most of what they have that really are the ones that you can learn the most from if you get the chance. Of course being highly skilled with a large bankroll would be an ideal situation, but in many cases that takes more than just blackjack knowledge to attain.
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What an OUTSTANDING post!
A lot of insight can be taken from it. Thanks for sharing these thoughts Bojack!

Coincidentally could you comment as to what professionals consider having a good bankroll?

The only team bankroll figures I remember are the $1million from the MIT team in the early 90's, and presumably the next-in-line Amphibians team had something similar?

I have no idea as to bankrolls of teams currently in operation.

As far as a professional solo player, or an EMFH team, would what would be considered a good BR? 50k, 100k, 250k?

Presumably, AP's that don't actually count, wouldn't really need a BR greater than 200k in any case since they probably wouldn't be able to get the right size bets onto the tables in any case?
 
matt21 said:
What an OUTSTANDING post!
A lot of insight can be taken from it. Thanks for sharing these thoughts Bojack!

Coincidentally could you comment as to what professionals consider having a good bankroll?

The only team bankroll figures I remember are the $1million from the MIT team in the early 90's, and presumably the next-in-line Amphibians team had something similar?

I have no idea as to bankrolls of teams currently in operation.

As far as a professional solo player, or an EMFH team, would what would be considered a good BR? 50k, 100k, 250k?

Presumably, AP's that don't actually count, wouldn't really need a BR greater than 200k in any case since they probably wouldn't be able to get the right size bets onto the tables in any case?
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As far as bankroll size for a professional, it varies based on risk sensitivity and profit need. What works for one may not even come close for another. KJ plays professionally with a very modest bankroll, but his needs are not as great as some others, so that works fine. I could not play with that size bankroll because my income needs are greater and the risk would be way too high to try to match the ev I need to attain them. In todays game there is a point where you cannot raise your unit to any higher amount due to the fact its not practical to play that way anymore. In that case you can far exceed the bankroll amount needed to play your highest unit and keep your risk incredibly low. Below 1% is what I consider safe risk for a professional non replenishable bankroll. Once you have maxed out your practical playing unit and spread with a fraction of 1% risk, there really is no need to keep adding to the bankroll beyond that amount.

Just a couple of other notes. Last I knew there were still some big EMFH teams out there with million dollar bankrolls. Alot of players playing at once in many different venues requires a huge bankroll. Also there are also professional AP's out there playing with no bankroll at all of their own. Getting paid or funded to play for others is a safe way to play that some get the chance to do usually after becoming established. It may sound pretty good to play with no risk to your own bankroll, but it can be a royal pain in the ass and less lucrative. There are always pros and cons to any way you approach to play the game.
 
Billy C1 said:
There are exceptions--------------------but most major league baseball managers, NBA and NFL coaches weren't terrific players themselves.
The saying "do as I say, not as I do" comes to mind.

BillyC1
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True, and the ones who were great players tend not to be the best coaches, because they don't understand players who don't have all the physical skills they did. A swim coach told me that Michael Phelps has poor form, that he would not accept in the swimmers he coaches, but because he is such a physical freak it is the correct form, for him.

In the AP world, there are so many different forms of it that we can all find something that suits our skills.
 
paddywhack said:
Are you planning to use the same monetary categories as last year or are you going to break them down a bit more?
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Seems like I was limited by the number of poll choices allowed. I will look into expanding that to give us more categories.
 
Billy C1 said:
There are exceptions--------------------but most major league baseball managers, NBA and NFL coaches weren't terrific players themselves.
The saying "do as I say, not as I do" comes to mind.

BillyC1
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That also has a lot to do with economics. A player who was a boderline pro never made the big bucks that the stars do, and it is much easier to go work in the minors for lesser money. In fact, they may need to do so just to support their families.
A Superstar player can make more money doing a few autograph shows a year than they will make coaching on the lower levels, so most choose not to. The life of a minor league ballplayer or coach sucks. Cheap hotels and six to eight hour busrides. Not many stars will put in the time coaching at this level.
 
shadroch said:
That also has a lot to do with economics. A player who was a boderline pro never made the big bucks that the stars do, and it is much easier to go work in the minors for lesser money. In fact, they may need to do so just to support their families.
A Superstar player can make more money doing a few autograph shows a year than they will make coaching on the lower levels, so most choose not to. The life of a minor league ballplayer or coach sucks. Cheap hotels and six to eight hour busrides. Not many stars will put in the time coaching at this level.
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I'm sure that's true. There may be a very limited number of individuals that have such a passion for the game that they stay in it in some capacity but "money rules".

BillyC1
 
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