H17 vs S17

[Persnickety1]

How much EV am I losing if I were to use the "Dealer hits soft 17" basic strategy at a "Dealer stands on soft 17" table? Playing the correct S17 BS would gain .22 EV for my game.

The rules of the game are: 6 Decks, Double Any 2 Cards, Double After Split, Late Surrender, Dealer Peeks, penetration 1 deck out.

As the only kind of game in my neck of the woods, H17 is deeply engrained into my subconscious memory. I can accurately BS, Hi-Lo, and bet while maintaining a simple conversation (I test my skills with Casino Verite 4.2, and I do it often).

Now I may have an opportunity to try my luck at an S17 game. I'm worried that learning the few differences between H17 and S17 is enough to make me second guess my playing strategy, and that could be taxiing on the 4 brain cells I have left.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

How much EV am I losing if I were to use the "Dealer hits soft 17" basic strategy at a "Dealer stands on soft 17" table? Playing the correct S17 BS would gain .22 EV for my game.

The rules of the game are: 6 Decks, Double Any 2 Cards, Double After Split, Late Surrender, Dealer Peeks, penetration 1 deck out.

As the only kind of game in my neck of the woods, H17 is deeply engrained into my subconscious memory. I can accurately BS, Hi-Lo, and bet while maintaining a simple conversation (I test my skills with Casino Verite 4.2, and I do it often).

Now I may have an opportunity to try my luck at an S17 game. I'm worried that learning the few differences between H17 and S17 is enough to make me second guess my playing strategy, and that could be taxiing on the 4 brain cells I have left.

One significant change is going to be the late surrender plays versus the ace. You don't surrender 17 vs. A in S17, for example.

And there is a lot less soft doubling in S17 too. Better learn those.

 

[Canceler]

Persnickety1 –

I know the feeling. The vast majority of my play has been with H17, but every once in a while I get to play S17. The last time, I was quite pleased with myself for remembering not to double my 11 vs. A!

And there is a lot less soft doubling in S17 too.

“A lot” means two, in this case.

Go here: Expected Values (Archive copy), and then click on the 6D, S17 link. The first thing to notice is that for A, 7 vs. 2 and A, 8 vs. 6 the difference between standing and doubling is negligible. Combine that with how seldom those hands occur, and it really doesn’t make much difference.

11 vs. A is another story. The difference between hitting and doubling is greater, and it occurs more often. I know you’re used to doubling 11 vs. everything, but if you could remember just this one difference, it might help.

And, as AM mentioned, the surrender is different. The EV chart ought to answer all of your questions about the cost of playing it wrong.

 

[moo321]

There's very little difference overall, compared to the effect of penetration, or rules like late surrender.

 

[Kasi]

I can accurately BS, Hi-Lo, and bet I'm worried that learning the few differences between H17 and S17 is enough to make me second guess my playing strategy, and that could be taxiing on the 4 brain cells I have left.

If you were actually playing a 5/6 H17 DAS LS using Hi-lo indices and spreading your bets, it's possible you may want to change your unit size depending how you are playing it. Alot of the indices in H17 would be a little different too.

But, basically, if you were playing an H17 game with the same rules, just sit back and make more money lol.

If you are a BS player, learn the 5 different BS plays and get your extra 0.22% lol.

 

[jack.jackson]

If you were actually playing a 5/6 H17 DAS LS using Hi-lo indices and spreading your bets, it's possible you may want to change your unit size depending how you are playing it. Alot of the indices in H17 would be a little different too.

But, basically, if you were playing an H17 game with the same rules, just sit back and make more money lol.

If you are a BS player, learn the 5 different BS plays and get your extra 0.22% lol.

Not quite sure about this, but even if HE wasnt to learn the changes in BS plays, between a H17 game, and a S17 game, wouldnt he still gain the majority of the extra advantage to be had in the S17 rule?

I think most of the gain from this rule comes from plays, that arent contingent to wether or not the dealer hits/stays on S17.

 

[QFIT]

Quite right. I added some stuff on this subject at http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration13.htm

 

[nightspirit]

Quite right. I added some stuff on this subject at http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration13.htm

Nice study! Thank you!

 

[Kasi]

, between a H17 game, and a S17 game, wouldnt he still gain the majority of the extra advantage to be had in the S17 rule?

I think most of the gain from this rule comes from plays, that arent contingent to wether or not the dealer hits/stays on S17.

Oh yeah absolutely if he's a counter, I'd think. I couldn't really tell if he meant by "playing strategy" departures based on index plays or just BS lol.
But I'd guess I don't even think using the same index numbers that I guess he already knows for H17 for the S17 game would make a huge difference even though there's alot that are different.

That was just in case he was a BS player since he also seemed concerned about the added advantage if one plays BS. After all, would a counter really be asking in the first place whether he should learn the BS for the game he's about to play lol.

Just edited to add I hadn't seen Norm's chart when I posted this.

Edited again to add I still think he may at least want to look into the possibility of changing his unit size.

 

[jack.jackson]

Oh yeah absolutely if he's a counter, I'd think. I couldn't really tell if he meant by "playing strategy" departures based on index plays or just BS lol.
But I'd guess I don't even think using the same index numbers that I guess he already knows for H17 for the S17 game would make a huge difference even though there's alot that are different.

That was just in case he was a BS player since he also seemed concerned about the added advantage if one plays BS. After all, would a counter really be asking in the first place whether he should learn the BS for the game he's about to play lol.

Just edited to add I hadn't seen Norm's chart when I posted this.

Edited again to add I still think he may at least want to look into the possibility of changing his unit size.

Yeah copy that. Its was hard to discern wether or not he meant Index plays or BS plays. I figured you knew that; and was using your example to help support the question.

 

[Persnickety1]

Oh yeah absolutely if he's a counter, I'd think. I couldn't really tell if he meant by "playing strategy" departures based on index plays or just BS lol.
But I'd guess I don't even think using the same index numbers that I guess he already knows for H17 for the S17 game would make a huge difference even though there's alot that are different.

That was just in case he was a BS player since he also seemed concerned about the added advantage if one plays BS. After all, would a counter really be asking in the first place whether he should learn the BS for the game he's about to play lol.

Just edited to add I hadn't seen Norm's chart when I posted this.

Edited again to add I still think he may at least want to look into the possibility of changing his unit size.

Yes, I am a counter, and I use Hi-Low.

My betting strategy (True count):
less than +2 - $ table minimum
+2 - $20
+3 - $30 - 2 hands if available
+4 - $40 - 2 hands if available
+5 - $50 - 2 hands if available
greater than +5 - $50 - 2 hands if available

Sacrifices made for the sake of simplicity:
1. I use lllustrious 18 indexes, but grouped together in low count triggers and high count triggers. I don't double down in low counts, but I still split.

2. I maintain true count in my head in fractional form, and I round to the nearest full remaining deck. The math is just easier that way.

The easier math allows me to stay focussed for a whole lot longer, at a cost in EV.

But then again, it would be even more costly if I made big mistakes for forcing my brain into doing things I'm not confident with.