How do I read the blackjack apprentice H17/S17 Chart?

#1
Hey,

I’m currently learning the H17 & S17 Deviations provided by blackjack apprentice, but I’m not sure what to do when deviating.

For example on the S17 Chart it says if I have a Soft 19 vs a dealers 4 to deviate when the true count is 3+, but what do I deviate to? A double down or a Hit?

Thank you for your time,
D.
 

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DSchles

Well-Known Member
#2
Steely said:
Hey,

I’m currently learning the H17 & S17 Deviations provided by blackjack apprentice, but I’m not sure what to do when deviating.

For example on the S17 Chart it says if I have a Soft 19 vs a dealers 4 to deviate when the true count is 3+, but what do I deviate to? A double down or a Hit?

Thank you for your time,
D.
Double. Deviation numbers are NEVER for hitting. If you are not using BS, the indices tell you to: insure, surrender, split, double, or stand.

Don
 
#3
DSchles said:
Double. Deviation numbers are NEVER for hitting. If you are not using BS, the indices tell you to: insure, surrender, split, double, or stand.

Don
Thank you for the reply Don,

it’s good to know that deviation #’s are never for hitting, I never knew!
I’m a little lost what to do with some of the numbers on this chart, for example the chart says hard 11 vs a Ace to deviate if the count is 3+. What would I deviate to instead of doubling down?

P.s; I saw a user recommend your book “Black Jack Attack: 3rd Edition” and I’m going to buy it, Where do you recommend I buy it from?

Thank you again,
D.
 
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BoSox

Well-Known Member
#4
Steely said:
it’s good to know that deviation #’s are never for hitting, I never knew!
I’m a little lost what to do with some of the numbers on this chart, for example the chart says hard 11 vs a Ace to deviate if the count is 3+. What would I deviate to instead of doubling down?
First you are confused about what is a deviation the doubling down is the deviation. Now you need to look at that chart again as you having an eleven vs Ace up card is not a +3 to deviate unless you are using some counting system that I am not aware of.

Last , yes I recommend that you read Don's S book but only after you read a Stanford Wong book first which is titled: Professional Blackjack. In my opinion, those two books go together like peanut butter and jelly.
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#5
Steely said:
Thank you for the reply Don,

it’s good to know that deviation #’s are never for hitting, I never knew!
I’m a little lost what to do with some of the numbers on this chart, for example the chart says hard 11 vs a Ace to deviate if the count is 3+. What would I deviate to instead of doubling down?

P.s; I saw a user recommend your book “Black Jack Attack: 3rd Edition” and I’m going to buy it, Where do you recommend I buy it from?

Thank you again,
D.
It means to double if the count is +3 or higher, otherwise, hit. The BS play would be to hit. The deviation is to double if the count is high enough. You say "instead of doubling down," as if doubling is the BS. But that can't be.

As for my book, while you should buy it here: https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/shop/products/blackjack-attack-playing-the-pros-way/
the fact is that you're not ready for it yet. Wait a while and buy it after you've read some more basic books.

Don
 
#6
DSchles said:
It means to double if the count is +3 or higher, otherwise, hit. The BS play would be to hit. The deviation is to double if the count is high enough. You say "instead of doubling down," as if doubling is the BS. But that can't be.

As for my book, while you should buy it here: https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/shop/products/blackjack-attack-playing-the-pros-way/
the fact is that you're not ready for it yet. Wait a while and buy it after you've read some more basic books.

Don
I see where I am getting confused. I have been using the basic strategy chart from Black Jack apprenticeship (Please find link below)

Basic Strategy Chart: https://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BJA_Basic_Strategy.jpg

This Basic Strategy Chart says that I should always double down on a Hard 11 vs anything.

is this basic strategy chart correct, I feel as though I am missing something. (Sorry for so many questions)

I do agree with you on the book as I’m still novice at card counting, it would be nice to have it ready for when I feel like I’m ready.

thanks again Don!
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#7
Steely said:
I see where I am getting confused. I have been using the basic strategy chart from Black Jack apprenticeship (Please find link below)

Basic Strategy Chart: https://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BJA_Basic_Strategy.jpg

This Basic Strategy Chart says that I should always double down on a Hard 11 vs anything.

is this basic strategy chart correct, I feel as though I am missing something. (Sorry for so many questions)

I do agree with you on the book as I’m still novice at card counting, it would be nice to have it ready for when I feel like I’m ready.

thanks again Don!
Those charts ought to specify the rules. They appear to be H17, but they aren't 100% correct, as they don't show surrendering 15 and 17 vs. Ace. This is BJA?? Surprising errors. Anyway, while the BS for 11 vs. Ace is to double for H17, it is to hit for S17. I don't know what count you were looking at when you cited +3 as an index, but it certainly isn't Hi-Lo. Those indices are +1 for S17 and -1 for H17, so something is clearly very wrong.

Note, also, that indices don't always indicate departures from BS to the upside. For example, in the above, for H17, the -1 means double if the TC is >=-1, otherwise, hit. And the BS is to double. Another example: 12 vs. 4, zero, means: Stand if the TC>=0, otherwise hit. And the BS is to stand.

Don
 
#8
DSchles said:
Those charts ought to specify the rules. They appear to be H17, but they aren't 100% correct, as they don't show surrendering 15 and 17 vs. Ace. This is BJA?? Surprising errors. Anyway, while the BS for 11 vs. Ace is to double for H17, it is to hit for S17. I don't know what count you were looking at when you cited +3 as an index, but it certainly isn't Hi-Lo. Those indices are +1 for S17 and -1 for H17, so something is clearly very wrong.

Note, also, that indices don't always indicate departures from BS to the upside. For example, in the above, for H17, the -1 means double if the TC is >=-1, otherwise, hit. And the BS is to double. Another example: 12 vs. 4, zero, means: Stand if the TC>=0, otherwise hit. And the BS is to stand.

Don
Ohhh! Okay, that makes sense. I think is see where it went wrong (completely my fault) BJA provides 3 charts, A Basic Strategy Chart, S17 Chart & H17 Chart. I’ll link all of them below:

H17 Chart: https://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/BJA_H17.pdf

S17 Chart:
https://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/BJA_S17.pdf

Basic Strategy Chart:
https://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BJA_Basic_Strategy.jpg

I have to apologize as the 3+ was my mistake. I miss read one of the charts.
I now understand that for a S17 game the move you make when you have a 11 vs Ace is to Hit unless the count is +1 then you double, But for a H17 game it is always to double.

I’m not sure whether or not BJA apprentice has errors or if it’s me just confusing everything (most likely it’s me)

I think I finally get it and once again you have provided more help then I deserve lol.

Thanks again Don,
D.
 
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The G Man

Active Member
#9
Went to see the first chart... https://www.blackjackapprenticeship.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/BJA_H17.pdf
I can read LS 16 vs 9 at -1- Does that mean LS at -1 or less ?
Same for 15 vs 10 at 0- ?

They say:
`+` after the index number indicates the deviation happens at that true count and above
`-` after the index number indicates the devation happens at the true count and below
0- indicates the deviation happens at any negative running count
0+ indicates the deviation occurs at any positive running count

This is wrong and should read:
LS 16 vs 9 at -1+ (I use 0+)
LS 15 vs 10 et 0+

And I would add:
LS 17 vs A at +2-
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#10
The charts are, unfortunately, sloppy and more complicated than they need to be. On the S17 chart, they have A,7 vs. 2 as a double, which is wrong.

Also, don't know why they don't have a -1 index for H17 11 vs. Ace. They have other -1 indices. You don't always double; you double if the TC>=-1.

Don
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#12
Steely said:
I have to apologize as the 3+ was my mistake. I miss read one of the charts.
I now understand that for a S17 game the move you make when you have a 11 vs Ace is to Hit unless the count is +1 then you double, But for a H17 game it is always to double.
Steely, an important point here to be made about the player holding any two-card hand and the True Count is +3 or above when the dealer is showing an Ace upcard. A card counter will deviate at that point from the basic strategy player by taking insurance which the basic strategy player never should do. You must count all the cards that were already played including all the cards in the existing ongoing hand "if you can see them" when determining the True Count. Always remember when taking insurance this has nothing to do at all with protecting a good hand. This is a completely different side bet that is offered before the hands are played out, any time the dealer is showing an Ace up. The insurance index play "of course when done correctly" is the most important and valuable play out of all of the index possibilities there are.
 
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