How often have you seen this?

[Johnny Vegas]

Greetings all. First post and pretty new to the game. (the past year)

Started in Vegas last year and did pretty well (got lucky) with the little basic strategy I knew. Came back read Mr. Renzey's BJBBII (thanks Fred for getting a noob squared away from the get go!) Got BS down cold and went to hand interaction and his A/10 front count. Back to Vegas and again did pretty good. Took a hit though at the Horseshoe in IN and realized the limitations he mentioned: hard to get a good read when a deck goes cold. That and I know my bankroll limit at this time keeps me to a $15 max table min and they only had 2 which were packed so no chance to effectively table hop.

Had my intro to counting with the speed count and after several thousand rounds on CVBJ really questioned its strength and betting correlation as I was busted out a lot! So it was on to K-O. Here's something I really like! So several thousand rounds on CVBJ and keeping an accurate count (distracting myself while practicing with music on the computer, TV on, barking dog, imaginaringly high 5'ing players with a natural, etc. Was ready to test it in a casino.

So here's where I get to the reason for my post. (Sorry I was a bit long just figured an introduction was in order)
Was out with a friend the other night at Harrah's in Joliet. Stood in the background and counted and found all my practice paid off! I felt I was accurately and comfortably keeping the count! Right before I was going to buy in I noticed: all the discard trays and shoes appeared normal except they were completely covered and you could not see discards or what was left in the shoe!

How often have people seen this? I know a system that has to convert to TC would be screwed by this what would the negative expectation be overall for something like K-O? I know you wouldn't know when you hit a walk point. Thanks. Oh, and I decided not to play after seeing this.

 

[itakeyourmoney]

Greetings all. First post and pretty new to the game. (the past year)

Started in Vegas last year and did pretty well (got lucky) with the little basic strategy I knew. Came back read Mr. Renzey's BJBBII (thanks Fred for getting a noob squared away from the get go!) Got BS down cold and went to hand interaction and his A/10 front count. Back to Vegas and again did pretty good. Took a hit though at the Horseshoe in IN and realized the limitations he mentioned: hard to get a good read when a deck goes cold. That and I know my bankroll limit at this time keeps me to a $15 max table min and they only had 2 which were packed so no chance to effectively table hop.

Had my intro to counting with the speed count and after several thousand rounds on CVBJ really questioned its strength and betting correlation as I was busted out a lot! So it was on to K-O. Here's something I really like! So several thousand rounds on CVBJ and keeping an accurate count (distracting myself while practicing with music on the computer, TV on, barking dog, imaginaringly high 5'ing players with a natural, etc. Was ready to test it in a casino.

So here's where I get to the reason for my post. (Sorry I was a bit long just figured an introduction was in order)
Was out with a friend the other night at Harrah's in Joliet. Stood in the background and counted and found all my practice paid off! I felt I was accurately and comfortably keeping the count! Right before I was going to buy in I noticed: all the discard trays and shoes appeared normal except they were completely covered and you could not see discards or what was left in the shoe!

How often have people seen this? I know a system that has to convert to TC would be screwed by this what would the negative expectation be overall for something like K-O? I know you wouldn't know when you hit a walk point. Thanks. Oh, and I decided not to play after seeing this.

There is someone on these forums who has a sig that says something like "Friends don't let friends play Harrah's blackjack" lol. My advice (and take note that I'm not a blackjack expert by any means) would be to not play games where you can't see how many cards are spent/left. I would also probably advise you to spend some time backcounting in a casino before actually betting, even though you've practiced a lot on CV it can be a lot different when you're in a casino using your count system -- adrenaline is pumping, you need to keep watch of heat, and you have to interact with other people. So spend some time getting accustomed to the atmosphere of the place you're in, and stay clear of hidden discard trays

Welcome to the forum.

ITYM

 

[InPlay]

Greetings all. First post and pretty new to the game. (the past year)

Started in Vegas last year and did pretty well (got lucky) with the little basic strategy I knew. Came back read Mr. Renzey's BJBBII (thanks Fred for getting a noob squared away from the get go!) Got BS down cold and went to hand interaction and his A/10 front count. Back to Vegas and again did pretty good. Took a hit though at the Horseshoe in IN and realized the limitations he mentioned: hard to get a good read when a deck goes cold. That and I know my bankroll limit at this time keeps me to a $15 max table min and they only had 2 which were packed so no chance to effectively table hop.

Had my intro to counting with the speed count and after several thousand rounds on CVBJ really questioned its strength and betting correlation as I was busted out a lot! So it was on to K-O. Here's something I really like! So several thousand rounds on CVBJ and keeping an accurate count (distracting myself while practicing with music on the computer, TV on, barking dog, imaginaringly high 5'ing players with a natural, etc. Was ready to test it in a casino.

So here's where I get to the reason for my post. (Sorry I was a bit long just figured an introduction was in order)
Was out with a friend the other night at Harrah's in Joliet. Stood in the background and counted and found all my practice paid off! I felt I was accurately and comfortably keeping the count! Right before I was going to buy in I noticed: all the discard trays and shoes appeared normal except they were completely covered and you could not see discards or what was left in the shoe!

How often have people seen this? I know a system that has to convert to TC would be screwed by this what would the negative expectation be overall for something like K-O? I know you wouldn't know when you hit a walk point. Thanks. Oh, and I decided not to play after seeing this.

Use a UB count.

 

[ChefJJ]

Johnny,

I can't really attest to anything more than Hi-Lo and KO, and I have to say that KO works for me. To make a disclaimer though, I am not a pro and probably spend 30% of my casino time with BJ, the other 70% playing craps.

KO is easy and I can use it as second-nature when having some alcohol. That's my measure of ease

good luck

 

[jack.jackson]

Can you at least see the "cutcard" in the shoe?

Also is there a "fixed" amount of cards dealt?

You should also count the # of cards dealt, so we know what the pen is.


Depending on the rules, pen and spread, your decreased accuracy of the TC of the cards dealt, could still make it a playable game. Depending on several factors though.

 

[callipygian]

Greetings all. First post and pretty new to the game. (the past year)

Welcome!

all the discard trays and shoes appeared normal except they were completely covered and you could not see discards or what was left in the shoe!

How often have people seen this?

I've never seen this before, for what that statement is worth (I'm not super-experienced).

 

[Johnny Vegas]

Thanks for the welcome guys!

To answer your question Jack all the tables I saw were H17, DAS, no sur. I didn't stick around that long to get a read on pen but from what I saw the only way to see the cut card was when the dealer pulled it out. Next time I go to practice backcounting i'll give it a read on pen. But like was mentioned earlier i'm not planning on playing Harrah's blackjack! Ill have to check Empress when it reopens.

And chef I agree! I can have a few drinks with KO and stay with it. Very nice gauge! I've been working with KISS III lately and it seems equally easy to maintain the count.

 

[moo321]

Took a hit though at the Horseshoe in IN

I found your problem.

 

[daddybo]

I found your problem.

I saw that problem 3 weeks ago..;-) Very poor games there. I think roulette has the least edge in the house! :laugh:

 

[Johnny Vegas]

Lol! Yeah, a buddy of mine wanted to go so I went along. Only 2 tables there fit within my bankroll ($15 minimums) and they were packed so no way to wong in and out.

Not that I never played roulette but after really studying black jack, bj is the only thing I'll spend money on in the casinos. I'd rather take my chances with a known number of cards than say craps where you're putting faith in 2 equal size and weight cubes and that they are going to land according to unalterable laws of physics. That and I couldn't tell you what a yo, pass, or midnight was if my life depended on it.

Poker I'll stick to friendly games with friends. It's more work to me trying to get in everyone at the table's heads and play psychological warfare than it is to keep a count, play some indices according to the count and stick to a bet spread according to the count. Not downplaying it's intricacies in any way. And that's also why I like the UB counts. Don't really have to do the mental gymnastics all the time. Just keeping the count is enough! KISS III seems to be working well so far, I'm going to stick with it!

 

[non-self-weighter]

Don't play shoe games without surrender.

 

[sagefr0g]

if they cover the discards and the shoe you could still go by 2.7 cards per player & dealer for knowing how deep you are in the shoe.

 

[creeping panther]

Johnny

Greetings all. First post and pretty new to the game. (the past year)

Started in Vegas last year and did pretty well (got lucky) with the little basic strategy I knew. Came back read Mr. Renzey's BJBBII (thanks Fred for getting a noob squared away from the get go!) Got BS down cold and went to hand interaction and his A/10 front count. Back to Vegas and again did pretty good. Took a hit though at the Horseshoe in IN and realized the limitations he mentioned: hard to get a good read when a deck goes cold. That and I know my bankroll limit at this time keeps me to a $15 max table min and they only had 2 which were packed so no chance to effectively table hop.

Had my intro to counting with the speed count and after several thousand rounds on CVBJ really questioned its strength and betting correlation as I was busted out a lot! So it was on to K-O. Here's something I really like! So several thousand rounds on CVBJ and keeping an accurate count (distracting myself while practicing with music on the computer, TV on, barking dog, imaginaringly high 5'ing players with a natural, etc. Was ready to test it in a casino.

So here's where I get to the reason for my post. (Sorry I was a bit long just figured an introduction was in order)
Was out with a friend the other night at Harrah's in Joliet. Stood in the background and counted and found all my practice paid off! I felt I was accurately and comfortably keeping the count! Right before I was going to buy in I noticed: all the discard trays and shoes appeared normal except they were completely covered and you could not see discards or what was left in the shoe!

How often have people seen this? I know a system that has to convert to TC would be screwed by this what would the negative expectation be overall for something like K-O? I know you wouldn't know when you hit a walk point. Thanks. Oh, and I decided not to play after seeing this.

Mr. Vegas,

Do yourself a big favor and never go back to that Ind. Casino again.

CP

 

[chichow]

Horseshoe is the closest one to metro Chicago.

It is also a really nice playing environment.

You do have to pick and choose your game (especially times)

 

[Martin Gayle]

You need to keep a separate count of the amount of cards that have been played. If you are able to do this it will make you a very strong player.

Another option is to use an unbalanced count where you do not have to do deck estimation. ie KO or Red 7.