I'm not sure I'm suited for this

[JulieCA]

I started playing BJ because a bunch of friends talked me into it. Prior to that, I was a total non-gambler. For some reason, I just love everything about it. I haven't played other card games because, quite frankly, I have difficulty remembering all the various rules and hands and payouts. BJ is fairly simple when you get right down to it.

Being a semi-OCD sort of person, I also undertake to conquer everything I get obsessed about. I read books, practice, research it nearly to death. Hence - I decided I needed to learn how to count cards in order to truly master BJ.

My husband - who could easily be a card counter - thinks it's terribly funny that I have fallen in love with a game that requires math skills. Because I haven't any. When I first started, I was counting 7+5 on my fingers under the table. I finally got over that by practicing just recognizing pairs. And a dealer in Vegas, on seeing my problem with adding any hand that included an ace, gave me a tip on how to easily add hands with aces.

See why counting might be a problem for me?

I read the Wizard of Odds and I can't make sense of most of it. EV? My head spins. The more calculations and math formulas someone throws into a BJ discussion, the less I understand what the hell they're talking about.

So are all card counters especially good at numbers or do you think it's even possible for me to practice enough to get good at counting cards? And is it possible to be a really good BJ player without counting cards?

Side note: I did go to the casino last night. What a zoo. So I practiced counting the cards while waiting for a table. At this point, I can't even imagine trying to do it AND play a hand.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Don't play until you're ready. It's good that you backcounted the table for practice—it's one of the best ways. I'm not especially gifted when it comes to math, but I think you can become a competent player if you're simply willing to practice. Understanding the complex mathematical aspects of the game is important, but you don't need to always be able to calculate your EV, WR, RoR, etc. As long as you have a solid understanding of what these mean and roughly how they are determined, you can leave the hard work up to a good sim.

In my humble, unexperienced opinion, I'd say that the most important traits of an AP are the ability to think laterally (ie. to recognize opportunities that may have gone unnoticed to the casual observer), the ability to remain calm in tense situations, good discipline, and motivation to the point of near-obsession. Math skills are low on my list, but you certainly do need to understand what all the different numbers mean and why they mean what they do, at least on a fundamental level. And as far as counting at an actual table goes, after enough repetition, it becomes almost automatic. Just my $0.02.

 

[daddybo]

Not too hard

As far as card counting goes... It's mostly memory, practice and concentration. An OCD personality is usually pretty good at it. You don't need anything beyond basic math skills to be an accomplished card counter. (adding subtracting and dividing.) Read the "good" books to learn the methods and let the math guys do the hard math. . A strong math background helps in squeezing more out of the game and assessing risk in all casino games, but you can usually find the info without having to do all the math.

After a while you will be counting in your mental "background". Heck, I find it hard to play and not count. I'll even be playing other games sometimes realize I'm counting. :laugh:

 

[UK-21]

Stick with it. You don't need to be a maths genius to play BJ with an advantage or understand the finer points of the maths - or any maths at all for that matter, although you do need to know the principles behind playing with an advantage, rather than a disadvantage.

Take a look at Arnold Snyder's Red 7 count - it doesn't get any easier than that. No running count to true count conversions to do, no complicated betting patterns to remember and just a handful of deviations from basic strategy to learn. But, you will need to learn basic strategy. Even if you subsequently decide counting cards isn't for you, learning and applying this will still leave you as one of the better players at the table (even though you'll not be playing a winning game long term).

Persuade your husband to indulge you in a BJ table at home so you can practice, and you'll get the hang of it in no time.

Go for it, and good luck.

 

[SleightOfHand]

I read the Wizard of Odds and I can't make sense of most of it. EV? My head spins. The more calculations and math formulas someone throws into a BJ discussion, the less I understand what the hell they're talking about.

EV means expected value or how much you expect to make from making a certain decision. Good BJ players will always try to maximize their EV so that they can make the most profit. As long as you are reading reliable sources, you don't neccessarily need to know all the math of the game, although it helps if you need to think of something on the spot.

So are all card counters especially good at numbers or do you think it's even possible for me to practice enough to get good at counting cards? And is it possible to be a really good BJ player without counting cards?

Having the ability to count cards does not require any high level math. Its all +/- 1 (using a level 1 count) and if you are using an unbalanced count like KO, you dont even need to divide to find a true count. Given enough practice, the actual counting aspect should be no problem for anyone.

As for being a really good BJ player without counting, there are other ways to beat the game. Those things are occasionally mentioned on this website. However, as being a "good BJ player" can mean different things to different people, some will argue that counting cards does not make you a good player. Others may say that basic strategy is enough.

Side note: I did go to the casino last night. What a zoo. So I practiced counting the cards while waiting for a table. At this point, I can't even imagine trying to do it AND play a hand.

Yea, you just need more practice. You need to be able to count, add the hand totals, recall the correct decision, find the true count (if using a balanced system), compare the RC/TC to an index play, and be completely casual while doing it. There are lots of things you have to do in a small period of time, which is why so much practice is required before even placing a bet. Just keep practicing and you will eventually get it

 

[JulieCA]

Thank you everyone for the encouragement and advice. I was SO down last night - it looked overwhelmingly impossible while I was in a crowded casino. They were having so much at the Let 'Em Ride table, I was ready to consider switching obsessions. :laugh:

 

[creeping panther]

Julie

Thank you everyone for the encouragement and advice. I was SO down last night - it looked overwhelmingly impossible while I was in a crowded casino. They were having so much at the Let 'Em Ride table, I was ready to consider switching obsessions. :laugh:

I will differ from the rest of the opinions...after reading what you have said I say....play perfect basic in a very good game and use a small positive progression, which means you up your bet in small increments after each win and drop back to base after a lose.

I think you just want to have fun, and being an AP is not really about fun, it is about ego, competition and domination.

CP

 

[Pro21]

Read Comp City by Max Rubin and concentrate on getting the most out of the casino in comp dollars rather than trying to beat the game.

 

[JulieCA]

I will differ from the rest of the opinions...after reading what you have said I say....play perfect basic in a very good game and use a small positive progression, which means you up your bet in small increments after each win and drop back to base after a lose.

I think you just want to have fun, and being an AP is not really about fun, it is about ego, competition and domination.

CP

If I just wanted to have fun, I'd go out with my girlfriends.

This is about dominating the game. I'm not interested in putting money up to play a game where the house advantage is over 3%, as it is in Let 'Em Ride. I started playing BJ for fun with my friends - but I wasn't going to keep playing it and plunking money down on the table willynilly just for fun.

When it comes to money, I'm extremely competitive.

 

[daddybo]

oh Yeah!

Well.. I'll say she's got the attitude part of it down pat. :eyepatch:

 

[Canceler]

If I just wanted to have fun, I'd go out with my girlfriends.
...
When it comes to money, I'm extremely competitive.

Excellent response!! There is no reason for you not to try to become as good at this game as you possibly can.

I can't imagine why some people are trying to convince you not to.

 

[zengrifter]

So are all card counters especially good at numbers or do you think it's even possible for me to practice enough to get good at counting cards? And is it possible to be a really good BJ player without counting cards?

You can learn basic strategy and you will be superior to 99.9% of all players...
BUT you still will not have a positive math expectation (ie likelyhood of winning).
(BS housEdge: 1/2 of 1% approx)

Counting only requires simple arithmetic, practice, concentration, study, acting...
BUT at its core is simple +1/-1 divide by 3 arithmetic. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Read Comp City by Max Rubin and concentrate on getting the most out of the casino in comp dollars rather than trying to beat the game.

Yes - JulieCA, get Comp City. zg

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Julie, it is a lot to take on at first.

It helped that I already had known basic strategy for several years when I started counting. It just takes practice, practice and practice. After a while, you will instantly see a 2 or 3 card combo and know its total without even thinking. And you will even be able to count without really thinking. The first time I counted in a casino, I never thought that would be possible!

Get 6 decks of cards, a dealing shoe and tray, and ask your hubby nicely to deal to you. To make it a bit more fun, you can also let him get into the game and switch off dealing to him if he is interested. When you deal to him, you can simply practice counting and adding up hands without worrying about making decisions. Unless he wanted you to help him learn Basic Strategy.

Of course, if he isn't into helping you practice you can always deal hands to yourself.

Anybody with above average intelligence can learn to beat the game, and the way you present yourself on here I would not be shocked if you had above average intelligence.

Above all, make sure you practice very much before you actually wager money in the casino, unless you want some expensive lessons.

Although, if your locale has $2-3 minimum blackjack, I would not rule that out.

 

[Grisly Dreams]

I have a massive, massive bias toward linguistic intelligence, to the point where the psychologists would characterize it as a learning disability relative to the other side of the brain. My mathematical development has never been worth crap.

Ergo, I will not be devising a killer blackjack system.

But although my math skills really went south after about 8th grade, there's nothing stopping me from learning a killer blackjack system. (Except I will not attempt to calculate the precise optimal bet before each hand. That takes some doing.)

Rote memory. Lots of rote memory. That's all it is, if you can add, subtract and divide.

 

[Slick]

I will differ from the rest of the opinions...after reading what you have said I say....play perfect basic in a very good game and use a small positive progression, which means you up your bet in small increments after each win and drop back to base after a lose.

I think you just want to have fun, and being an AP is not really about fun, it is about ego, competition and domination.

CP

I am new to this site, as someone who has loved card games since a young child, but also someone who has "issues" being around strangers so until recently the thought of going to a casino was out of the question for me (I went once when I turned 21 and was overwhelmed). Every post I have read from you seems to either show your knowledge of the game or your hatred of the game. You are not the only one. I see so many people here who seem to try to make anyone new immediately hate the idea of trying to be an AP.

I don't like that.

When the lady who started the thread said she is kind of OCD, I knew exactly where things were going for her. She WILL learn the game, the count, etc to a T. She WILL try to succeed. Perhaps she will end up not wanting to do it, but she is the kind of person who is going to stop at nothing to be the best player she could possibly be and no one is going to change that.


This was mostly a rant, and as a new member I might come off very sour, but I am very displeased withh all the anti-BJ posts I see in a BJ forum.

 

[Grisly Dreams]

This was mostly a rant, and as a new member I might come off very sour, but I am very displeased withh all the anti-BJ posts I see in a BJ forum.

It's exceptionally dangerous to gamble heavily on a game one does not fully understand. I think what you perceive as "anti-BJ" is instead a very responsible attempt to make sure that people understand that there is a lot at stake.

 

[creeping panther]

Julie

If I just wanted to have fun, I'd go out with my girlfriends.

This is about dominating the game. I'm not interested in putting money up to play a game where the house advantage is over 3%, as it is in Let 'Em Ride. I started playing BJ for fun with my friends - but I wasn't going to keep playing it and plunking money down on the table willynilly just for fun.

When it comes to money, I'm extremely competitive.

3% edge....that is no where near a fine BJ game, try .25

If you want to dominate then learn AP play, and be ready for a very tough road, I wish you the best.

CP

 

[creeping panther]

Slick

I am new to this site, as someone who has loved card games since a young child, but also someone who has "issues" being around strangers so until recently the thought of going to a casino was out of the question for me (I went once when I turned 21 and was overwhelmed). Every post I have read from you seems to either show your knowledge of the game or your hatred of the game. You are not the only one. I see so many people here who seem to try to make anyone new immediately hate the idea of trying to be an AP.

I don't like that.

When the lady who started the thread said she is kind of OCD, I knew exactly where things were going for her. She WILL learn the game, the count, etc to a T. She WILL try to succeed. Perhaps she will end up not wanting to do it, but she is the kind of person who is going to stop at nothing to be the best player she could possibly be and no one is going to change that.


This was mostly a rant, and as a new member I might come off very sour, but I am very displeased withh all the anti-BJ posts I see in a BJ forum.

I am very happy to have you on this site.

However, I will never be the one to *sugarcoat* the game to any newbie, it is rough, tough and full of danger.:yikes:

They need to know that going in.

Regards,
CP

 

[Slick]

I agree, it isnt hollywood go in and sleep away while making thousands of dollars, but ther emust be some reason people do it!