Is It Early or Late Surrender? --Confused!!

C

clouds

Member
#1
#1
Hello Everyone,

Firstly thank you all for your help with my previous question, I appreciate your explanations and it was nice to speak with some of you in the chat room. :)

I am quite new to this website but have been card counting for a year now. I came across rules for a game that I am slightly puzzled with. I am trying to figure out the casino edge using the engine on this website, however I'm having trouble figuring out if the game is offering early or late surrender.

Game 1 is 6 deck, H17, DAS, Peek, 75-80% penetration. You can surrender against any card, including an ace, if dealer doesn't have blackjack. If the dealer has a face card, he must check for blackjack BEFORE you tell him you want to surrender. If he has a blackjack then that hand is over and no one can surrender. From my understanding this is considered late surrender, correct?

I'm more puzzled with Game 2: it's 4 decks, H17, DAS, No Peek, 75-80% penetration. You can surrender against any card except an ace. Since the dealer doesn't peek you can surrender against a face card because he can't check for blackjack. Would this game be considered early surrender or late surrender?

Thank you fellow CCers for your help! =D

-clouds
 
C

clouds

Member
#3
#3
Hmmm, so what should I punch in the engine? Late or early? Maybe the engine needs to be updated...maybe this type of surrender is called "punctual" lol, neither late or early. :p

-clouds
 
S

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
you also need to know what happens if you split or double down and the dealer ends up with BJ. Some games, you lose only the original bet, some you lose everything.
 
C

clouds

Member
#5
#5
The dealer takes the original bet if he gets a blackjack....does that make the surrender any more earlier or later? What would you suggest I put in the engine?

4 decks, 75-80% pen, H17, DAS, No peek with early surrender = 0.07% casino edge

Same game but with a late surrender jumps to a shocking 0.63% casino edge

I've been playing an 8 deck game S17, DAS, peek with NO surrender whatsoever and it has a much less edge with only 0.47%

Help! :S


shadroch said:
you also need to know what happens if you split or double down and the dealer ends up with BJ. Some games, you lose only the original bet, some you lose everything.
Click to expand...
 
K

k_c

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
clouds said:
The dealer takes the original bet if he gets a blackjack....does that make the surrender any more earlier or later? What would you suggest I put in the engine?

4 decks, 75-80% pen, H17, DAS, No peek with early surrender = 0.07% casino edge

Same game but with a late surrender jumps to a shocking 0.63% casino edge

I've been playing an 8 deck game S17, DAS, peek with NO surrender whatsoever and it has a much less edge with only 0.47%

Help! :S
Click to expand...
If you choose to surrender and lose 50% of original bet if dealer has blackjack, it is early surrender.

If you choose to surrender and lose all of original bet if dealer has blackjack, it is late surrender.
 
C

clouds

Member
#8
#8
I see, then this would deem it a late surrender. Thank you for clarifying!

k_c said:
If you choose to surrender and lose 50% of original bet if dealer has blackjack, it is early surrender.

If you choose to surrender and lose all of original bet if dealer has blackjack, it is late surrender.
Click to expand...
 
C

clouds

Member
#9
#9
Canceler, thank you very much for attaching the results from your simulation. The member above addressed the surrender clarification and I realize now that the rules stay the same with the only change being it is a late surrender game. Would you be able to tell me by how much the casino edge increases by? Thank you so much in advance!

-clouds

Canceler said:
Looks like the house edge for the 4D game is about 0.33%.
Click to expand...
 
C

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
clouds said:
Canceler, thank you very much for attaching the results from your simulation*. The member above addressed the surrender clarification and I realize now that the rules stay the same with the only change being it is a late surrender game. Would you be able to tell me by how much the casino edge increases by? Thank you so much in advance!

-clouds
Click to expand...
Okay, I kept everything as I had it, but changed the Surrender Versus Ten from ES to LS. Is that what you meant? Doing that makes the house edge 0.5011%.

*I used k_c's combinatorial analyzer. (He gets upset if you call it a sim. ;))
 
C

clouds

Member
#11
#11
Thank you again Canceler, didn't realize it would jump that high. :eek:

What exactly is the difference between a simulation and a combinatorial analyzer?

Canceler said:
Okay, I kept everything as I had it, but changed the Surrender Versus Ten from ES to LS. Is that what you meant? Doing that makes the house edge 0.5011%.

*I used k_c's combinatorial analyzer. (He gets upset if you call it a sim. ;))
Click to expand...
 
C

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
clouds said:
...didn't realize it would jump that high. :eek:
Click to expand...
Yes, any type of early surrender is very advantageous to the player. That’s why you don’t see it too much.

clouds said:
What exactly is the difference between a simulation and a combinatorial analyzer?
Click to expand...
A simulation (or sim) is where you have the computer play (ideally) billions of rounds of blackjack, and keep track of the results. What you get is an approximate answer. It may be an extremely close approximation, and certainly good enough for what you want to find out, but it’s still an approximation. For most dynamic situations, such as a count that’s constantly changing while playing through a shoe, you do need to run a sim.

Combinatorial analysis (CA) is an exact mathematical calculation that takes into account every possible thing that could happen, and weights it by its chance of occurring. For static situations, such as a certain defined shoe composition, CA is best. Or for off-the-top situations such as determining basic strategy, or house advantage, CA is best.

How you can feel superior: It’s common knowledge that basic strategy was derived from having computers play many billions of rounds of blackjack, and thus determine what the best play is. The only problem with that is, it’s wrong. If you hear that BS came from simulation, you can think to yourself, no, basic strategy was determined by combinatorial analysis. Because it was. I say think it to yourself because if you say it out loud people will just think you’re weird.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top