Is playing BJ for a living possible???

MJ1 · Dec 1, 2008

What do you guys think about the prospect of one becoming a professional BJ player given the deteriorating BJ games?

How large of a BR do you guys think one might need?

Let us assume the player lives purely off his BR, which is non-replenishable. Also assume that he lives in the Northeast.

One problem with attempting pro BJ is the fact that you are never certain to come out ahead, even after a year's worth of play.

Suppose a player earns $25/Hr at his regular job. If he could earn $100/Hr playing BJ, would it be worth it to quit his job and hit the tables?

Even with a SCORE of 50, N0 would be 20,000 hands. Assuming a conservative 50 rounds dealt per hour at 0.5 kelly with an $80k BR, it would require 400 hours of play to overcome 1 SD of negative variance. 800 hours would be required to double the bank, but that is only in theory. If you have shitty luck, you could spend 4 * 400 hrs = 1600 hrs at the tables and STILL have a 2.5% chance of being down.

I guess everybody has a different CE for how much they could potentially earn to make it worth quitting their job to become a full time BJ player.

Let us not forget the practical side. Would a casino allow a winning player to play 40 hours a week at their casino? I doubt it.

MJ

rollem411 · Dec 1, 2008

MJ1 said:

It's definetly possible. Should you quit your day job to be a full time player? Well I think you answered that question.

The bankroll could be of any size dependent on how much you intend to make. If you want to squeeze by you can live off of $25 an hour or you can make over $100 an hour, but would need a far bigger bankroll. I think if you are living off of your BR than you would need to have an ROR under 1% which requires a larger bank than 100x a max bet.

I think any BJ player should have some source of income other than gambling just in case of losing streaks.

Remember, there is no risk involved in having a regular 9-5 job. You will always be paid for the hours you put in...too bad I can't say the same for BJ.

BVUGrad2003 · Dec 1, 2008

Just in case?

rollem411 said:

It's definetly possible. Should you quit your day job to be a full time player? Well I think you answered that question.

The bankroll could be of any size dependent on how much you intend to make. If you want to squeeze by you can live off of $25 an hour or you can make over $100 an hour, but would need a far bigger bankroll. I think if you are living off of your BR than you would need to have an ROR under 1% which requires a larger bank than 100x a max bet.

I think any BJ player should have some source of income other than gambling just in case of losing streaks.

Remember, there is no risk involved in having a regular 9-5 job. You will always be paid for the hours you put in...too bad I can't say the same for BJ.

Sorry to nitpick, but isn't there a pretty good certainty of losing streaks while playing blackjack?

rollem411 · Dec 1, 2008

BVUGrad2003 said:

Yes, if you play full time, you will no doubt experience a losing streak. This is why I believe you need another source of income.

21forme · Dec 1, 2008

rollem411 said:

Or play on a large team where the large number of hands played helps smooth the variance.

takinfromindians97 · Dec 1, 2008

21forme said:

Aww you beet me to it!!! I was going to say if you got a team together, had a big enough bankroll, skilled players(like no mistakes at all), unbelievable trust (or lie detector tests still not 100%), and on top of all this is the most over looked part of the team... A manager to put together the trips, set up practice, recruit, distribute cash and a laundry list of other things. If you did have all these components and could put them to work ,then you would hit the long run alot quicker and get alot more big money on the tables when the cards are in you favor. Your team could all make a very good living off of blackjack. I still believe just a one man team can acomplish this goal also just with much much more work, but the bankroll would have to be very large to make a good living.

Bojack1 · Dec 1, 2008

21forme said:

This is a good point, as well as the way that I have chose to do it for many years. Although my primary team was never too large, it is big enough to reach long term numbers rather quickly. There has also been free lancing for other teams, as well as combining teams for short periods of time to exploit certain situations.

Honestly, very few could ever play BJ as a profession due to the fact that it takes a different sort to even want to do it. Its also important to note that once the decision is made to do it, you really won't be playing it in the same manner that most of you play it now. There may be favorite stops, but there should not be a place you hit every week month after month. You should have a large enough bankroll that your betting level can play the better games, and you need to travel. There are a few pros that I know that do this solo, but that is a way to go that I wouldn't recommend until you have an established base. Most pros I know play with teams even if its only 1 other person. Its a dynamic usually needed to lift the total grind from the game.

I also know very few professionals that started their career with already having a family. Most never actually have one, or don't start one until after they have made a mark where they can depend on income. And yes there are ways once you establish your game with the right people that you can always be sure of an income, and a nice one at that usually. There may be a few lone wolves out there grinding away, but for me if that was the only course, I would have never done this at all. It is work, but the work is more than just playing a good strong game, although that is important. There is networking that needs to be done if you want to play at a high level. This has been the hardest part of the whole deal for me, due to the fact that there are many that play this game that are not people I would normally associate with otherwise.

The end result is, I doubt anyone asking if they can turn pro will actually do it. Thats probably for the best. More times than not even incredibley skilled players give up or fail before they find their way to the point of making a living. Its not just playing BJ. Its turning what you do for fun into what you do for your existence. Thats why I have always said, playing blackjack does not give me a rush. If it did I would burn out in 6 months due to the stress of the emotions. The bottomline is, usually anyone who has the means to play this game professionally, has the means to do other lucrative more stable things as well. Common sense will drive most people to that direction in most cases. If it doesn't then you are either very naive and ignorant, or have brass balls and unerving confidence backed by brains and money. Either way it can be a good ride if you play it right, most don't though. Thats okay though, we need them too, thats where you get all your blackjack books from. (With a few exceptions)

InPlay · Dec 1, 2008

Here is a picture of me and my team after a bad run at the casino. If you want to make a living on doing that BJ thing good luck. I hope you end up better then my crew did.

blackjack avenger · Dec 1, 2008

Other Considerations

Health insurance costs?
If they are being provided by your employer then if you go out on your own you will incur those additional costs.

How is your car?
That can be a big sudden expense if you have an older car.

InPlay · Dec 1, 2008

blackjack avenger said:

Cars can be counted on as a asset you can sleep in them and save money by not having hotel expense. First rule of thumb keep your car payment current so you can get the most out of it.

blackjack avenger · Dec 1, 2008

Not Sure On This, Tongue and Cheek?

InPlay said:

I think when most consider turning pro they are looking to improve their lives. I dont think sleeping in your car qualifies?:joker::whip:

I guess one can say.
Turn pro and live in your parents basement?:joker::whip:

Having said that, if one is not careful the car can become a viable option!:joker::whip:

I like a young pros chances of surviving more if they have a car with under 10,000 miles vs over 100,000 miles. Also, perhaps a car one can easily sleep in!

InPlay · Dec 1, 2008

blackjack avenger said:

I think you always have to be ready for the unexpected look what happen to me and my team. If we had a van we would of been allright. Remember the factor variance or as I call it good luck or bad luck.

jack.jackson · Dec 1, 2008

Bojack1 said:

This is a good point, as well as the way that I have chose to do it for many years. Although my primary team was never too large, it is big enough to reach long term numbers rather quickly. There has also been free lancing for other teams, as well as combining teams for short periods of time to exploit certain situations.

Honestly, very few could ever play BJ as a profession due to the fact that it takes a different sort to even want to do it. Its also important to note that once the decision is made to do it, you really won't be playing it in the same manner that most of you play it now. There may be favorite stops, but there should not be a place you hit every week month after month. You should have a large enough bankroll that your betting level can play the better games, and you need to travel. There are a few pros that I know that do this solo, but that is a way to go that I wouldn't recommend until you have an established base. Most pros I know play with teams even if its only 1 other person. Its a dynamic usually needed to lift the total grind from the game.

I also know very few professionals that started their career with already having a family. Most never actually have one, or don't start one until after they have made a mark where they can depend on income. And yes there are ways once you establish your game with the right people that you can always be sure of an income, and a nice one at that usually. There may be a few lone wolves out there grinding away, but for me if that was the only course, I would have never done this at all. It is work, but the work is more than just playing a good strong game, although that is important. There is networking that needs to be done if you want to play at a high level. This has been the hardest part of the whole deal for me, due to the fact that there are many that play this game that are not people I would normally associate with otherwise.

The end result is, I doubt anyone asking if they can turn pro will actually do it. Thats probably for the best. More times than not even incredibley skilled players give up or fail before they find their way to the point of making a living. Its not just playing BJ. Its turning what you do for fun into what you do for your existence. Thats why I have always said, playing blackjack does not give me a rush. If it did I would burn out in 6 months due to the stress of the emotions. The bottomline is, usually anyone who has the means to play this game professionally, has the means to do other lucrative more stable things as well. Common sense will drive most people to that direction in most cases. If it doesn't then you are either very naive and ignorant, or have brass balls and unerving confidence backed by brains and money. Either way it can be a good ride if you play it right, most don't though. Thats okay though, we need them too, thats where you get all your blackjack books from. (With a few exceptions)

Great post Bojack!

Just wondering if you define pro and success as the same thing?

creeping panther · Dec 2, 2008

Foolish

MJ1 said:

Have a life, play part time to supplement your steady income.

One of the best BJ players I know, and a very well known PRO, lives off his wifes income and benefits, but....he is a PRO :laugh:

Another Highly skilled PRO lives in a small apartment and plays poker on line all day, and this guy is a great BJ player and has a major degree in a well respected profession.

What do both have in common, addiction and fear of a steady job and responsibility.

Sad.

CP

rollem411 · Dec 2, 2008

creeping panther said:

Not having the steady job is all part of the glory of AP. I currently play BJ part time, but would consider going full. I would probably loses the misses however. :laugh:

I agree though...there is more to life than just blackjack, but it really is one hell of a time. The environment, the money (and I only play low stakes), and the high from gambling is a great feeling. Luckily there is a way to make money doing so.

creeping panther · Dec 2, 2008

let's see

rollem411 said:

You have a wife, a steady job, and a hobby that makes you money, you are indeed a rich man

.......why ruin it

CP

takinfromindians97 · Dec 2, 2008

InPlay said:

I always thought about the RV route to use it to get to the casinos and stay for free.This way you can play everywhere, never worry about being kicked out,have your team be able to meet there like an HQ.It would be great idea, especially if you had a nice RV (have you seen some that are out there these days). With the dropping gas prices its becoming a better and better idea too.

Bojack1 · Dec 2, 2008

Alright, to address a few things here, to JJ, no I do not equate being a pro with success. At least not in the sense that playing has made you rich or even well off. As I stated in my post, there are some rather famous pros that never had any real success monetarily, but yet wrote very informative books that most of us have read and have used their advice quite often. I have even played for some of these people only to come to realize that although quite knowledgeable, practical application is not their forte. But they can still be considered a success because they have managed to make fine livings with blackjack, just maybe not in the sense that most would think. There are also those such as CP talks about who are pros in a sense but who are really no more than problematic gamblers. I do not associate frequently with those types of "pros" but there are more of them out there then what would be considered self sufficient players.

Which leads me to CP's comments. I will agree you are very close to your assessment of what happens whan one believes they should play professionally. But there are those that have done it wisely and successfully that have quite fulfilling lives. That would include me. I don't grind this game out at all. As a matter of fact I personally may play less then some of you do here. But through hard work with my team and other ventures of blackjack, this has proven to be a wise move on my part. I would not recommend any to try it as most can't begin to understand the difference of what playing for your supper is, compared to the thinking this being some kind of hobby like paintball where its war against the casino. Big difference, its not war and casually strolling into the same casino week after week ain't gonna cut it. And no matter what counting system you use, you will need more tricks then that to pull off a nice living. So foolish is the rule in those who turn pro, but there are exceptions.

And rollem411, I do hope you were kidding about more than just losing the wife. Any who play this partime that are married and or with kids, need not consider going fulltime. It won't work. Like I said before the family needs to come after you have established your game and found out whats what. Or when you realize this is not recreation and and the fun as you knew it and thought it would be is gone and you go back to a normal job with security. I'm not saying its not a fun job, just not in the way that most conceive it to be now playing it for recreation. To be honest, to play this game as a job you would have to re learn the game and retrain yourself in a way totally different then how you play it now. Thats the problem with people trying to crossover, if they ever catch on to how to do it, its usually too late and they are either broke or mentally broken or both.

I did it with the help of other pros in the beginning. I'll admit I was spoiled and didn't know any other way. I was staked to a big bankroll and had no family or conventional ties that needed to much concern. That situation does not come along for most. If it didn't happen that way for me I'm pretty sure I wouldn't even been playing the game at all today.

Kasi · Dec 2, 2008

MJ1 said:

It's probably worse than you think. If we assume the $25/hr you made at your job was all a "fixed expense" or even the "salary" you would pay yourself from your roll, you'd have to fund that from your roll and that can change one's risk compared to the "traditional" way when one assumes no fixed expenses are being paid from it.

Anyway, anytime you fund fixed expenses from a roll, and therefore any winnings are not included in roll, it's a whole new ballgame.

As if it wasn't complicated enough without that

iCountNTrack · Dec 2, 2008

You could make your living of BJ, but it all depends on your personal opinion on what are acceptable living standards. What is an acceptable hourly rate for you? Bankroll considerations...the other major problem I know of is society's intolerance and negative perception towards BJ or Casino players in general whether they are AP or not. They just get the label "GAMBLER". Surely you can do it in secret and not tell anybody because you might be ashamed but then why not work as a cab driver in major city and not tell anyone. You will make $80/hour much easier than you would with blackjack with zero variance.

This is why I highly advise against having BJ as the only source of income, it kills the fun of the game. i personally go to casino enjoying the fact that I have an advantage over the casino. If I am up 2-3K after a few hours of play I leave, and squander my winnings: Dom Perignon, Strippers, my niece or nephew, some charitable organization lol .

Is playing BJ for a living possible???

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