Keeping an ACE count. Worthwhile or waste of effort?
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zengrifter
Banned
Waste. zg
jack.jackson
Well-Known Member
Using an Ace-Reckoned hurts your PE a little bit, since its negative card for betting, but a slighty positive card over-all for playing. Thats why the Zen count tags it as -1.newb99 said:
zengrifter
Banned
Waste. zgFLASH1296 said:
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
The fantastically high Playing Efficiency of .67 coupled with a very high (Ace-Adjusted) Betting Correlation makes Hi-Opt II the "gold-standard" of 'pitch games'
I use ZEN for shoe games as Side-Counting Aces in a shoe game is rarely of much value, and the slightly diminished playing efficiency is also unimportant in shoe games; as in those games sync'ing our betting ramp to the betting correlation is our primary tactic for 'getting the money'.
I use ZEN for shoe games as Side-Counting Aces in a shoe game is rarely of much value, and the slightly diminished playing efficiency is also unimportant in shoe games; as in those games sync'ing our betting ramp to the betting correlation is our primary tactic for 'getting the money'.
zengrifter
Banned
FLASH1296 said:
It depends on HOW you side-count the Aces - if you side-count them and adjust the way authors Humble, Uston, Revere, and Carlson recommend in their books you are working harder to only get the same gain as ZEN. Not worth it. WASTED effort. zg
Ps - So how do YOU count YOUR Aces?
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
I beg to differ, at least in part.
The part that refers to pitch games.
I Side-Count Aces and use the info in TWO ways.
Firstly I use it to adjust the True Count for purposes of bet-sizing.
Secondly, I use it to adjust some Split and Double-Down plays.
If anyone wants me to digress on this topic, please request same and I shall comply.
The part that refers to pitch games.
I Side-Count Aces and use the info in TWO ways.
Firstly I use it to adjust the True Count for purposes of bet-sizing.
Secondly, I use it to adjust some Split and Double-Down plays.
If anyone wants me to digress on this topic, please request same and I shall comply.
zengrifter
Banned
Thats not my question. How do you keep track and adjust for Aces? zgFLASH1296 said:
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
How To Side-Count Aces with Hi-Opt II.
There are two questions here: Firstly, how to keep track of the Aces, and secondly, how to utilize the INFO.
You are playing a DD game. You are using the awesome Hi-Opt II count. Of course, there are only eight (8) Aces to monitor.
Keeping Track of the Aces:
There are two methods that are popular. The first is Add a letter to the running count as each Ace appears. So, a +3 running count with 4 aces seen would be (internally) recited as +3D The D being the fourth (4th) letter of the alphabet. With all Aces sen the suffix would be an H. With no Aces seen no suffix is needed
Some players use their foot position to keep track, as recommended by the old-timers, e.g. Ken Uston. Using a small stack of chips as counters is too transparent.
With Hi-Opt II a SURPLUS or a DEFICIT of Aces ADDS or SUBTRACTS two (2) from the running count - for each Ace that is greater than or less than a normal amount of Aces seen. Here are a couple of examples to demonstrate:
Running Count is +2 and there have been no aces seen. 50% of the cards have been dealt. The true count is now +2 but there would normally be four (4) Aces shown by now. You adjust the Running Count +2 for each Ace in surplus. Four (4) times +2 = +8 Now your running Count is +10 and so is your True Count. You ready a sizable bet and are dealt a 12 vs. a dealer Deuce. Your True Count [for betting purposes only] is +10 You scratch for a hit BECAUSE your True Count for Playing Decisions is merely +2, inadequate for you to stand.
You are still in the same DD game and the running count is +4 with 3/4 of the cards having been played. Your True Count is +8 and you are facing a dealer's Ace. Two (2) Aces have been seen prior to this hand, and the dealer shows one too. You realize that 6 Aces (on average) should have been seen. You have a surplus of three (3) Aces. Your +8 True Count is now +14. so you have sized your bet to your MAX and you TAKE insurance - based on the +8 True Count; and now your hand of TEN is looking really good - as your ADJUSTED TRUE COUNT is +14, your Insurance True Count is +8, and the three (3) extra Aces increases your chances of making a 21. You now very happily Double-Down with a holding of Ten. What was a marginal play (if you are a risk-averse player) becomes pretty tasty. Had you held an eleven instead of a ten, the situation would be adjusted in the other direction as an Ace would give you a doubled total of twelve and you would be wise to only hit.
Your second hand is a pair of NINES. Hmmm. With Double after Split, you easily have a proper Split here, and with such a surplus of Aces, you are smilingly inwardly as you very very much "have the best of it" with increased chances of having a 20 on one or both of the spots.
A little late you are still playing and your running count after 25% of the cards have been seen is +4 but all of the Aces have been seen. In your head you are hearing/seeing "Plus 4 H" Your Normal True Count is +2, but with NO Aces an adjustment of -16 is needed. Your Betting True Count is now -12 and you either leave the table or make a minimum bet. You are dealt a soft 17 and the dealer's DEUCE is prompting you to double down until it occurs to you that part of your extremely slim advantage is based on drawing an Ace to increase your holdings from 17 to 18. There are NO Aces. You hit and decrease your Risk of Ruin a bit by decreasing your cash volatility reducing your money at risk in a "dicey" situation where your edge is essentially non-existent.
A surplus of Aces LEFT in the deck, help A6-A9,77-XX.
Aces carry different Magnitude, for paticular hands, e.g., I weigh the ace as -/+ 1 for 12v2, while -/+ 2 for 12,13,14, vs Dealears 6, and Soft Stiffs vs Dealears Bust card.
My thanx to "Jack, Jackson" for some useful advice in editing this post.
The underlying principal is that Aces are the Biggest Cards for Betting purposes BUT they are the Smallest Cards for playing purposes. They are at odds as so to speak. No pun intended. This technique utilizes the awesome power of the Ace without compromising the play of one's hand. I use the ZEN COUNT for the eight deck shoe games that I play in regularly - as tracking 32 Aces rarely provides a significant surplus or deficit of Aces PER deck.
There are two questions here: Firstly, how to keep track of the Aces, and secondly, how to utilize the INFO.
You are playing a DD game. You are using the awesome Hi-Opt II count. Of course, there are only eight (8) Aces to monitor.
Keeping Track of the Aces:
There are two methods that are popular. The first is Add a letter to the running count as each Ace appears. So, a +3 running count with 4 aces seen would be (internally) recited as +3D The D being the fourth (4th) letter of the alphabet. With all Aces sen the suffix would be an H. With no Aces seen no suffix is needed
Some players use their foot position to keep track, as recommended by the old-timers, e.g. Ken Uston. Using a small stack of chips as counters is too transparent.
With Hi-Opt II a SURPLUS or a DEFICIT of Aces ADDS or SUBTRACTS two (2) from the running count - for each Ace that is greater than or less than a normal amount of Aces seen. Here are a couple of examples to demonstrate:
Running Count is +2 and there have been no aces seen. 50% of the cards have been dealt. The true count is now +2 but there would normally be four (4) Aces shown by now. You adjust the Running Count +2 for each Ace in surplus. Four (4) times +2 = +8 Now your running Count is +10 and so is your True Count. You ready a sizable bet and are dealt a 12 vs. a dealer Deuce. Your True Count [for betting purposes only] is +10 You scratch for a hit BECAUSE your True Count for Playing Decisions is merely +2, inadequate for you to stand.
You are still in the same DD game and the running count is +4 with 3/4 of the cards having been played. Your True Count is +8 and you are facing a dealer's Ace. Two (2) Aces have been seen prior to this hand, and the dealer shows one too. You realize that 6 Aces (on average) should have been seen. You have a surplus of three (3) Aces. Your +8 True Count is now +14. so you have sized your bet to your MAX and you TAKE insurance - based on the +8 True Count; and now your hand of TEN is looking really good - as your ADJUSTED TRUE COUNT is +14, your Insurance True Count is +8, and the three (3) extra Aces increases your chances of making a 21. You now very happily Double-Down with a holding of Ten. What was a marginal play (if you are a risk-averse player) becomes pretty tasty. Had you held an eleven instead of a ten, the situation would be adjusted in the other direction as an Ace would give you a doubled total of twelve and you would be wise to only hit.
Your second hand is a pair of NINES. Hmmm. With Double after Split, you easily have a proper Split here, and with such a surplus of Aces, you are smilingly inwardly as you very very much "have the best of it" with increased chances of having a 20 on one or both of the spots.
A little late you are still playing and your running count after 25% of the cards have been seen is +4 but all of the Aces have been seen. In your head you are hearing/seeing "Plus 4 H" Your Normal True Count is +2, but with NO Aces an adjustment of -16 is needed. Your Betting True Count is now -12 and you either leave the table or make a minimum bet. You are dealt a soft 17 and the dealer's DEUCE is prompting you to double down until it occurs to you that part of your extremely slim advantage is based on drawing an Ace to increase your holdings from 17 to 18. There are NO Aces. You hit and decrease your Risk of Ruin a bit by decreasing your cash volatility reducing your money at risk in a "dicey" situation where your edge is essentially non-existent.
A surplus of Aces LEFT in the deck, help A6-A9,77-XX.
Aces carry different Magnitude, for paticular hands, e.g., I weigh the ace as -/+ 1 for 12v2, while -/+ 2 for 12,13,14, vs Dealears 6, and Soft Stiffs vs Dealears Bust card.
My thanx to "Jack, Jackson" for some useful advice in editing this post.
The underlying principal is that Aces are the Biggest Cards for Betting purposes BUT they are the Smallest Cards for playing purposes. They are at odds as so to speak. No pun intended. This technique utilizes the awesome power of the Ace without compromising the play of one's hand. I use the ZEN COUNT for the eight deck shoe games that I play in regularly - as tracking 32 Aces rarely provides a significant surplus or deficit of Aces PER deck.
Last edited:
Sonny
Well-Known Member
Everybody stand back! ZG is about to go into his "ace density" lecture. :grin:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=78642
-Sonny-
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=78642
-Sonny-
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