Multiple questions for zg(or anyone who knows)

[Ms. Dalton]

I have been doing very well the past 6 months in a few specific casinos. I'm keenly perceptive of the environment and look like the textbook "dumb girl" so I don't have many problems with pit bosses and floor managers. However, its only logical that sooner or later they will see that I don't leave their fine establishment down any money. I do all the right things: flirt, look unfocused at the table, occasionally place a large bet when the count is neutral, cash chips in in groups not large enough to cause them to ask for my player card(that happened once before I figured out to split my winnings), and yes, I do have a friend's card to use but have been called on that once already. Sooner or later they are going to catch on right? Someone's monitoring all that player info, analyzing the data, and learning who loses/wins the most right? To add to it, one of my favored places does the whole chip-tracking-in-the-table thing. Am I just being paranoid? If not, how long do I have before these places are not an option for me?
Next question, and this one is the million dollar one. I am familiar with tax law and would never pose a threat to myself by not paying taxes BUT is there an amount I can win at a table at one time that will cause me to have to fill out paperwork? If so, what it is? What about over time, will there come a day that they walk up to me and say "Ms. Dalton, according to our records you've won $XXXXX in this casino and we need you to fill out a form for that."? And if so what is that form, is it the IRS Form 103 or is it something else? I have recently met some people who have told me horror stories of how they were asked to fill out paperwork for LOSING more than ten thousand dollars(unfortunately I do not know them well enough to ask them specific details about their form-signing in casinos). Would similar paperwork be necessary for a win of similar amounts?
And here is the question I’d like to know the answer to most, I have researched enough thus far to have discovered the Form 103/Form 103N but I’d like to know if the form is used for $10,000 in money changed one way(either won or lost) or is it used whenever that much is changed in a day(maybe cashing in $4,000 and changing $6,500 of chip back into cash)?
I know that accounting is all about putting the right transactions into the right time periods but that leads to another question: Since the verbage on the instructions for Form 103 says in one business day, when do casinos usually start their business day for accounting purposes? Is it different for different casinos?
I know you are busy and I know I've overloaded you but I have one last question. I will be in Las Vegas soon and would love your opinion on the places on the strip and in the old downtown as to where the best single deck and double deck games are?

 

[biggamejames]

I dont think you have tax issues so worry about when betting black jack.

I have won over 10k before playing at the same casino (and a cumulative amount of over 20k(mostly sports betting but had some coin from BJ as well) playing at various mgm properties about 3 months ago and no one asked me to do any paperwork.)


The biggest problem i got was at mandalay bay when trying to cash out about 7k in chips that i had accumulated over that weekend. They asked me for my player card which i provided then they asked me for id and i didnt want to give it to them. After making me stand at the window for a while i got pissed of and just gave them the id. they paid me and I left. (Most other times i had cashed out a large amount at MB they only asked for player card and called the table i played at and paid me without hustle.

I have never gotten anything from the IRS or casino about this issue and i have asked several times about it.

I know the sports books are required to fill out papers on you if you cash out over 10k. So i take a small part in cash, the rest in chips which i cash out later at the casino. Even when you do this, the casino is still required by law to fill out a certain form on you.(forgotten what its called but i think its the SAR form or something along those lines) HOwever, you have the option to refuse to give them any information and as soon as you say you prefer not to give them that information the manager will simply say, "thank you for playing and have a nice day"

 

[EasyRhino]

Dalton, are you ratholing chips? Sneak a couple into your purse, and figure out a way to cashier them in such a way that it shrinks your wins and increases your losses. Nothing crazy (like I sometimes do) just a few units per hour. And I'm jealous since you can carry a purse.

Unfortunately, assuming your are betting at a level that the casino will give a damn, some bean counter will finally realize that something is up with your lifetime win. It's basically inevitable. But this assumes you're betting at a level that they care about.

$10,0001 in one day in cash transaction should trigger a CTR form. The definition of day is up to the casino. Maybe midnight, or maybe a early morning shift. SARS (suspicious acitivty reports) can be filed for any amount for any reason, and they are not disclosed to the player. I've heard some financial institutions end up filing SARs for everything, as a CYA move. the SAR law gets a lot of criticism as being worthless.

As bignamejames already mentioned, smaller amounts (I often hear $3k also) can trigger various levels of BS from the casino, which is largely casino specific. I haven't had the privilege of hitting this level. Also, be aware that some folks now recommend certain denomination chips are to be avoided. In Vegas it's the $5k chips. These are perceived as "illiquid" since the news story of a poker player who was given one to pay a debt, but had it confiscated when he tried to cash it at a MGM Mirage property.

And as you've already noticed, certain amounts, or certain types of chips, may trigger a confirmation between the cashier and pit of amounts. These confirmations are to be avoided if you're ratholing.

 

[ScottH]

Any relation to zg Ms. Dalton? :grin:

 

[EdgeCapper]

Ahhh yes, Regulation 6. "Never discuss Regulation 6!" is what was pounded in my head by my old casino manager. Casino employees are not allowed to discuss this and it is automatic termination at most places if caught. It is public information that can be researched, but each casinos specific procedures for reporting cash transactions is unique.

Any transaction of $10,000 or more in a 24 hour period is required to be reported to the IRS. A 24 hour period is casino specific, but is commonly started at the begining of graveyard shift and ends at the finish of swing. If the pit or cage ask to make a copy of your ID, it is for this reason. If they ask to check your ID, it is to verify that you are who you say you are and as long as a copy is not made, it will not be reported.

Ways to avoid regulation 6 filings are
- Cashing out chips in small amounts
- Going to differant cashiers everytime you cash out
- Buying in with amounts less than dealers are required to call out, like $95 instead of a whole $100.
- Never play with a cash bet because the pit will keep a more detailed record of your play rather than an estimate. $150 money plays lost 4 times in a row will be notated as a $600 drop when changing the same amount 4 times may be marked by 4 tally marks for every whole hundred you changed at one time. The 50 is ignored usually.

The casino will most likely request to copy your ID much sooner than the time you hit the $10,000 mark and will not report you until you make it to that amount so just give in and let them have it, but do not make any more transactions that day. If you refuse to give up your ID, your picture and play notes will be sent to other casinos(At least casinos owned by the same company). Where I used to work, we had a player try to buy in and another casino sent us his info and we were required to copy his ID before we could let him play. To avoid drawing suspicion, it is best to just hand it over.

Large cash transactions are not reported for the sake of tax filings, but to aid in the prevention and tracking of money laundering. Blackjack and other table games winnings are not taxable unless you hit a jackpot of some sort, like winning $25,000 on the lucky ladies sidebet.

 

[zengrifter]

I have been doing very well the past 6 months in a few specific casinos. I'm keenly perceptive of the environment and look like the textbook "dumb girl" so I don't have many problems with pit bosses and floor managers.

The dumb-girl appearance is a huge advantage.

However, its only logical that sooner or later they will see that I don't leave their fine establishment down any money.

As another member indicated, you should rathole a few chips per hour. 5-chips/hr (whether winning or losing) would be ideal. This way they will never notice that you are a winner.

I do all the right things: flirt, look unfocused at the table, occasionally place a large bet when the count is neutral,

The ONLY time to make a large bet in a neutral count is when you won a large plus-count bet on the previous hand, and you let it stay up, and at the end of the shoe you won a large bet (or two) and you leave the bets up after the shuffle. And, if you win them, just keep the bets out until you lose a hand. (sometimes)

cash chips in in groups not large enough to cause them to ask for my player card(that happened once before I figured out to split my winnings),

Good.

and yes, I do have a friend's card to use but have been called on that once already.

I don't think you need those ruses.

Sooner or later they are going to catch on right? Someone's monitoring all that player info, analyzing the data, and learning who loses/wins the most right? To add to it, one of my favored places does the whole chip-tracking-in-the-table thing. Am I just being paranoid?

Yes, paranoid. But slip 4-5 units per hour - win or lose - out of sight and you'll be fine.

Next question, and this one is the million dollar one. I am familiar with tax law and would never pose a threat to myself by not paying taxes BUT is there an amount I can win at a table at one time that will cause me to have to fill out paperwork? If so, what it is? What about over time,

The number is $10,000 (win or lose) in a 24-hr period. If you are winning and within $1000 of hitting that limit, quit and go to another club or end for the day. There is no number for over time - its strictly a 24-hr thing.

And here is the question I’d like to know the answer to most, I have researched enough thus far to have discovered the Form 103/Form 103N but I’d like to know if the form is used for $10,000 in money changed one way(either won or lost) or is it used whenever that much is changed in a day(maybe cashing in $4,000 and changing $6,500 of chip back into cash)? ... I know that accounting is all about putting the right transactions into the right time periods but that leads to another question: Since the verbage on the instructions for Form 103 says in one business day, when do casinos usually start their business day for accounting purposes? Is it different for different casinos?

Does anyone else care to share more on the above? From experience?

I have one last question. I will be in Las Vegas soon and would love your opinion on the places on the strip and in the old downtown as to where the best single deck and double deck games are?

I'll post my short-list of LV pitch games later, and in the meantime drop me a line at [email protected] and I'll send you a sample CBJN for LV games, its a good publication to have. zg

Ps - Get comfortable and DO use a players card so you can get your fair share of comps - which will be 15-20% of you longer-term win!

.

 

[zengrifter]

Blackjack and other table games winnings are not taxable unless you hit a jackpot of some sort, like winning $25,000 on the lucky ladies sidebet.

I think you mean tax-collected on the spot. Of course the winnings are taxable... (or not:eyepatch zg

 

[Ms. Dalton]

Thanks!

First, thank ALL of you for your knowledge. I appreciate it.

biggamejames: Thanks, tax fears had me seriously worried for a little while. And thanks for the mention of how MGM casinos are, I’m still comparably new to gaming at their properties and I definitely have interest in their m.o.

EasyRhino: Thanks, I haven’t been ratholing until this week but am definitely doing that now. Unfortunately I don’t think I’m real adept at being slick about it but I’m working on that. You mentioned betting “at a level that they care about”, what is that level? How much per hand is enough for them to care? There are a ton of people who are betting bigger than me.

ScottH: LOL, no relation to zg…just an interesting coincidence with the names.

EdgeCapper: Thank you, great info! They already have my ID due to player card so they already know me (at least at my regular spots). How wonderful that you worked at a casino, you have a wonderful advantage in knowing the ropes! I guess the whole money laundering aspect rolled right by me, but I’m happy to hear that’s what all the suspicion is about as opposed to tax status.

zg: Thanks! As mentioned, I’m taking EasyRhinos advice on ratholing. Its good to hear the confirmation on the occasional “bet for show” on a neutral count (only when having just finished well and fresh shuffle) but even then, I only do it if floor is there to notice me do it. I’m happy to hear I can win some before having to call it a day - what great day that'd be! ($10,000) but am surprised that you said I don’t need those ruses (regarding utilizing a secondary player card). Email on its way soon.

 

[EasyRhino]

How much per hand is enough for them to care?

The sensitivity level really depends on the joint you're at. What does the dealer call out when a high denomination chip is entered into play? "black action"? "purple action"? "green action"?

 

[Canceler]

Maybe not a huge consideration, but...

Its good to hear the confirmation on the occasional “bet for show” on a neutral count (only when having just finished well and fresh shuffle) but even then, I only do it if floor is there to notice me do it.

Don't forget about the eye in the sky!

 

[Ms. Dalton]

The sensitivity level really depends on the joint you're at. What does the dealer call out when a high denomination chip is entered into play? "black action"? "purple action"? "green action"?

Ok, I'm fine then, even when I have a large bet out, I don't use the large chips.

 

[Ms. Dalton]

You're right...

Don't forget about the eye in the sky!

Good point. And this raises another question. Does ratholing get noticed via eye in the sky? If so, doesn't it just make me look more suspicious? And is that the kind of activity that generates a SAR?

 

[ScottH]

Ok, I'm fine then, even when I have a large bet out, I don't use the large chips.

But then it's kinda funny to see the large stack of small valued chips. I've done that before many times. I was playing at a table that had a 50 dollar max. I bet 25 dollars with one green chip and they would call "green action". Then I bet 50 in red and they called "table max". So next time I just bet 45 in red!

 

[shadroch]

The eye in the sky can only see the top chip,so just cap off your bet with a red or green one.Obviously this won't hold up under intense scrutiny but it will fool the casual glance.

 

[21forme]

The eye in the sky can only see the top chip,so just cap off your bet with a red or green one.Obviously this won't hold up under intense scrutiny but it will fool the casual glance.

That may work for a losing bet, but when they pay a winning bet, they tend to separate the piles by color.

 

[EasyRhino]

Well, there would be something to be gained by switching from a stack of small denomination chips to a smaller chunk of higher denomination chips. 8 reds is certainly a taller stack than 5 greens. Ken Uston was a big proponent of slapping around random piles of chips as some betting cover.

Personally, I don't think the simple example (swapping 8 reds for 5 greens) is going to fool anybody. However, if you can incorporate this into betting with great abandon, then you might be able to get a little bit of mileage out of it. A little bit.

 

[ChefJJ]

The eye in the sky can only see the top chip,so just cap off your bet with a red or green one.

Does that work much in casino play? I've never done it myself, but have seen others at the table put bigger denomitations on top...and the dealer rearranges it before the deal. Does it work in hurried situations or with weak dealers?

Just curious.

good luck

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Good point. And this raises another question. Does ratholing get noticed via eye in the sky? If so, doesn't it just make me look more suspicious? And is that the kind of activity that generates a SAR?

Ratholing is an art. My favorite technique is to snatch up the chips before anyone realizes I'm doing it and put them in my pocket, ask for a lammer, go to the toilet and in the toilet transfer some of them to another pocket where they will stay until I leave the casino. When I go back to the table, I pull the chips back out of the original pocket and unless you were specifically watching for it, you won't realize there are less than I put in, or at the very least you won't be sure. A psychologist named Weber came up with a figure of around a 5% difference that the typical human will find indistinguishable in any stimulus, so ratholing 1 out of 20 might be a good rule of thumb.

Being you are a girl you are allowed to carry a purse so this opens up additional methods for the art.

 

[shadroch]

An SAR is an official Federal Document that implies possible money laundering. It is not an internal casino security report.Each SAR is supposed to be followed up by a member of the Treaury Dept.

 

[QFIT]

One problem with ratholing is that the chips are still disappearing from the tray and the PB is supposed to know what's in the tray. Another problem can occur if you cash in immediately and the casino checks with the table to see what the pit thinks you won. To avoid suspicion, you can make a point about pocketing some chips. Make it obvious. This is not all that unusual for a gambler. Then you can rathole additional chips.

On capping bets with a small chip; this tends to piss off dealers and slows the game. And the camera still sees the payoff. If you do this; I'd suggest capping with more than one small chip. This doesn't look like you're trying to disguise the bet.