As a basic strategy guy I usually surrender a pair of eights against the dealer's Ace, ten and nine and sometimes against the eight. I know surrendering against the ten, nine and eight goes against basic strategy rules but it seems more likely than not I would end up with a pair of hands with an 18 at best, costing four times as much, and probably losing both. Moreover, when splitting the eights I could end up busting both hands if I initially draw low cards, thereby losing four times as much money and not even having a hand to cash in on if the dealer ends up breaking. In addition, as you know surrendering allows you to get back 1/2 your bet. So if you are playing $10/hand and you surrender a pair of 8's...you only lose $5. If you split and lose both hands...you lose $20. If you split and double down.....you lose $40. Bear in mind I'm only talking about a pair of 8's against the dealer's Ace, ten, nine and eight. Just my own modification to basic strategy. I seem to have better sessions doing it. Does this sound reasonable or am I wrong? Thanks.
My Basic Strategy Modification...Right or Wrong?
- Thread starter smokey
- Start date
Reasonable? Well, that depends on your definition I guess.
The bottom line is that you are definitely costing yourself money. On that $10 wager, surrendering 88vT costs you $5. Yes, playing them out will sometimes cost you more, perhaps as much as $80 if you split to four hands and double all of them when the dealer gives you an eleven on each. But, on average, you'll lose only $4.75.
That's the closest case of the ones you mention...
Obviously, in each case, surrendering loses $5.
Playing out 88vA loses only $3.64
Playing out 88v9 loses only $3.89
Playing out 88v8 loses only 28 cents!
If you're worried about putting $20, $40 or even $80 at risk when appropriate, you don't have a sufficient bankroll or stomach to be betting $10.
The bottom line is that you are definitely costing yourself money. On that $10 wager, surrendering 88vT costs you $5. Yes, playing them out will sometimes cost you more, perhaps as much as $80 if you split to four hands and double all of them when the dealer gives you an eleven on each. But, on average, you'll lose only $4.75.
That's the closest case of the ones you mention...
Obviously, in each case, surrendering loses $5.
Playing out 88vA loses only $3.64
Playing out 88v9 loses only $3.89
Playing out 88v8 loses only 28 cents!
If you're worried about putting $20, $40 or even $80 at risk when appropriate, you don't have a sufficient bankroll or stomach to be betting $10.
Just in case you might misinterpret my response, it wasn't intended to give you a hard time about asking this very common type of question. I just saw an excellent opportunity to point out why revisions to basic strategy are what keeps the casinos afloat. Indeed, I think your question probably will do a great deal of good.
I can see both sides of this coin. I know what the math is for the various decisions here; but I also know that you won't lose exactly $4.75 each time. At the time you have to make the decision on that hand, you're probably looking at either losing $20 (or more) or winning $20 (or more) at the extremes. So if you aren't playing "in the long run", I can see some merit to taking the definite $5 loss and trying to re-group on the next hand. If I play for two hours and see 8-8 against a $10 three times, I'd be tempted to figure that my $15 loss from surrendering would be well within the standard deviation I'd expect from playing so few hands the proper way; but with much less risk of losing $60 or more.
No problem Ken, I joined the site to give and get information. If I'm making mathematically illogical moves playing blackjack then shit, I want to know about it. Mikeaber may have it right that I really remember the losing hands more than the winning hands. Accordingly, any joy I get by winning is far less than the disappointment I experience when lose,lol
How about the ENHC rules
Does anybody here considers what the right play in the European No Hole Card (ENHC) rule.
I know Ken has his maths right for the U.S.rules, but almost everybody else in the world plays according to the ENHC rules.
The problem with the ENHC rules is that you don't know that the dealer will get B.J. if his face card is a 10 or an Ace unlike the U.S.rules. So the odds are clearly shifted against the player splitting the pair of 8's.
I always surrender my pair of 8's as basic strategy says you should surrender 16 against 9, 10, and Ace.
so I am a little uncertain now what the actual correct play is in this situation.
Does anybody here considers what the right play in the European No Hole Card (ENHC) rule.
I know Ken has his maths right for the U.S.rules, but almost everybody else in the world plays according to the ENHC rules.
The problem with the ENHC rules is that you don't know that the dealer will get B.J. if his face card is a 10 or an Ace unlike the U.S.rules. So the odds are clearly shifted against the player splitting the pair of 8's.
I always surrender my pair of 8's as basic strategy says you should surrender 16 against 9, 10, and Ace.
so I am a little uncertain now what the actual correct play is in this situation.
I'm curious to know what the best strategy is as well. I play at a casino with 4decks, H17, DAS allowed, and with a variation of early surrender. According to the black strategy engine I should be surrendering a pair of 8s against a dealers ace and 10. Is the strategy engine incorrect??
For the sake of mentioning, with late surrender (other rules same) it says to surrender a pair of 8s against a dealers ace.
For the sake of mentioning, with late surrender (other rules same) it says to surrender a pair of 8s against a dealers ace.
Actually, now that you mention it, I thought that in the order of decisions, surrender comes ahead of splitting pairs, which would make surrendering the right move. But I could be wrong. I have read about 943,000 different basic strategy charts with subtile differences.
I'd say, just off the top of my head, that it really makes sense to surrender 8-8 against a ten or ace when playing ENHC.
I'd say, just off the top of my head, that it really makes sense to surrender 8-8 against a ten or ace when playing ENHC.
Yes, in an ENHC game you should surrender 88vT and 88vA.
As for Etownguy's question, 88vA should be surrendered when the dealer hits soft 17, even with late surrender and the US hole card rule.
My figures in the first response are for a 6D S17 game.
H17 makes a big difference when the dealer has an Ace up. Thus the difference.
As for Etownguy's question, 88vA should be surrendered when the dealer hits soft 17, even with late surrender and the US hole card rule.
My figures in the first response are for a 6D S17 game.
H17 makes a big difference when the dealer has an Ace up. Thus the difference.
I've had discussions about ENHC games with surrender before, but I can't recall the answer.
How is surrender handled in the ENHC games you are playing? Are you allowed true early surrender? That is, if you surrender a hand while the dealer is showing an Ace or Ten, do you immediately get half your bet back, or do they mark your hand with a lammer and only allow the surrender if the dealer does not end up with blackjack?
Essentially, this question is about whether they offer early or late surrender, and it affects the appropriate strategy. Depending on the answer, my earlier post may be inaccurate.
How is surrender handled in the ENHC games you are playing? Are you allowed true early surrender? That is, if you surrender a hand while the dealer is showing an Ace or Ten, do you immediately get half your bet back, or do they mark your hand with a lammer and only allow the surrender if the dealer does not end up with blackjack?
Essentially, this question is about whether they offer early or late surrender, and it affects the appropriate strategy. Depending on the answer, my earlier post may be inaccurate.
Where I am playing it is not a "true early surrender". It gets marked with a lammer and the surrender only happens if the dealer doesn't get a blackjack.
If I did double down versus a 10, or split ect...and the dealer pulls an Ace I only lose my original bet and not the subsequent doubles or split hands.
I can see what you mean about surrendering versus an early surrender game. LOL I remember playing once and only once versus a dealer who somehow forgot that he's supposed to place a lammer on my cards before he paid my surrender versus a 10&A...I surrendered gleefully all night.
If I did double down versus a 10, or split ect...and the dealer pulls an Ace I only lose my original bet and not the subsequent doubles or split hands.
I can see what you mean about surrendering versus an early surrender game. LOL I remember playing once and only once versus a dealer who somehow forgot that he's supposed to place a lammer on my cards before he paid my surrender versus a 10&A...I surrendered gleefully all night.
OK, that's what I expected. While posting my last message, I was still confused in my thinking though.
88vT and 88vA should be surrendered in an ENHC game, regardless of whether surrender is early or late. The reason is that when you play these hands out, you shouldn't split because both bets are at risk to a dealer blackjack. Because hitting these hands loses more than half a bet on average even assuming the dealer doesn't have blackjack, you should surrender instead.
88v9 should be split, not surrendered.
I think that's an accurate assessment.
88vT and 88vA should be surrendered in an ENHC game, regardless of whether surrender is early or late. The reason is that when you play these hands out, you shouldn't split because both bets are at risk to a dealer blackjack. Because hitting these hands loses more than half a bet on average even assuming the dealer doesn't have blackjack, you should surrender instead.
88v9 should be split, not surrendered.
I think that's an accurate assessment.
Late Surrender 8,8 against 10
If you are counting cards and using the Hi-Opt I Index you would late surrender 8,8 vs. 10 only when the true count is greater than 1. You would otherwise split them against everything else. Basic Strategy recommends you late surrender against the 9, 10, and A. I would apply these to the other combinations of 16 (10,6 and 9,7).
Just my 2 cents...
If you are counting cards and using the Hi-Opt I Index you would late surrender 8,8 vs. 10 only when the true count is greater than 1. You would otherwise split them against everything else. Basic Strategy recommends you late surrender against the 9, 10, and A. I would apply these to the other combinations of 16 (10,6 and 9,7).
Just my 2 cents...
Surrender 8/8 vs dealer 10
I've been playing for 40 years and have always felt that the basic rule of ALWAYS splitting 8's vs dealer 10 is a poor bet. Most times you turn one lousey hand into two. Recently I have begun to surrender the hand any time I have two or more units bet. My feeling is that the money I get back is my next bet, rather than having to go to my pocket for the next bet.
I've been playing for 40 years and have always felt that the basic rule of ALWAYS splitting 8's vs dealer 10 is a poor bet. Most times you turn one lousey hand into two. Recently I have begun to surrender the hand any time I have two or more units bet. My feeling is that the money I get back is my next bet, rather than having to go to my pocket for the next bet.