Need help! *beginner*

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noobycount

Member
#1
#1
So I recently got MORE interested in counting cards and etc. I was wondering, do you guys recommend any books or reads for me to read up on because just by browsing through these forums, I can barely understand a word you guys are saying. Theres so much blackjack lingo :eek:. But I have been counting cards for a while now and I do know the basics. I just want to know more of the math behind it now. When I was browsing through the forums, I saw that some of you guys talked about +EV, -EV, and variance. Can someone please link me or suggest me a read that gets more in depth about expected value and variance? That would be really helpful! and some tips please :p.
 
B

BJinNJ

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Three Titles...

Professional Blackjack by Wong
Blackjack Attack 3 by Schlesinger
Modern Blackjack by Qfit (Wattenberg)

All three are into the math behind bj.
I just got Qfit's book(vol I and vol. II) today!

IIRC, Wong and Schlesinger are available
through this website. Support our host!

BJinNJ :cool:
 
B

bjcardcounter

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
noobycount said:
So I recently got MORE interested in counting cards and etc. I was wondering, do you guys recommend any books or reads for me to read up on because just by browsing through these forums, I can barely understand a word you guys are saying. Theres so much blackjack lingo :eek:. But I have been counting cards for a while now and I do know the basics. I just want to know more of the math behind it now. When I was browsing through the forums, I saw that some of you guys talked about +EV, -EV, and variance. Can someone please link me or suggest me a read that gets more in depth about expected value and variance? That would be really helpful! and some tips please :p.
Click to expand...
I felt the same. I initially thought it is just a small technique but after joining the forum , reading books - I could see how much of Math has gone in there. Tip - Practice, practice, practice and have proper bankroll.
Understand your expectations. If you are one among who saw the movie 21 and thinking it can give great profits - beware!
There are many posts here from experienced people - search posts from matt21 and moo321. They were very helpful.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
From the Frequently Asked Questions thread:

noobycount said:
I was wondering, do you guys recommend any books or reads for me to read up on...
Click to expand...
Q: What books do you recommend?
A: It depends on what you want to learn about. There are many good books on basic strategy, card counting, team play, cover techniques, advanced techniques and just about anything else you need to know. Here is a short list of some books/authors that we recommend:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2351
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2131

noobycount said:
...I can barely understand a word you guys are saying. Theres so much blackjack lingo :eek:.
Click to expand...
Q: What are all those little acronyms like H17 DAS LS? What is Wonging? What is a CSM?
A: You can look up any unknown words of phrases here:
http://www.bjrnet.com/member/bjapr/Contents.htm
http://www.bj21.com/bj_reference/pages/100500.html

noobycount said:
When I was browsing through the forums, I saw that some of you guys talked about +EV, -EV, and variance. Can someone please link me or suggest me a read that gets more in depth about expected value and variance?
Click to expand...
Q: What is EV and variance? How are they helpful? How can I calculate them?
A: You can think of variance as “luck”. Sometimes you will have good luck, other times you will have bad luck. Sometimes you will have winning streaks, other times you will have losing streaks. The more you play, the more the good luck and bad luck cancel out. Your average results are called your Expected Value (EV) and the size of your lucky streaks is called the variance. Variance is how we measure the size of the swings you can expect. It is often helpful to know what kind of swings to expect so that you can know how much money you will need. Here is some more information on calculating and using variance:
(Dead link: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/...g_And_Risk.htm)
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=21055
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=12176
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=11980

-Sonny-
 
N

noobycount

Member
#6
#6
Wow! Thanks a lot guys. Haha! I was not expecting this much help, everyone is so nice on these forums! I have read a couple of books on blackjack and I have been counting for like about 3-4 months now but I never really got too serious about it until now (well, I wouldnt say I am "serious" but I'm just a college student looking to make money). I do know the basics and etc. Well, thanks a lot guys, looks like I have a lot of reading to catch up on.
 
N

noobycount

Member
#7
#7
Sonny said:
From the Frequently Asked Questions thread:



Q: What books do you recommend?
A: It depends on what you want to learn about. There are many good books on basic strategy, card counting, team play, cover techniques, advanced techniques and just about anything else you need to know. Here is a short list of some books/authors that we recommend:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2351
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2131



Q: What are all those little acronyms like H17 DAS LS? What is Wonging? What is a CSM?
A: You can look up any unknown words of phrases here:
http://www.bjrnet.com/member/bjapr/Contents.htm
http://www.bj21.com/bj_reference/pages/100500.html



Q: What is EV and variance? How are they helpful? How can I calculate them?
A: You can think of variance as “luck”. Sometimes you will have good luck, other times you will have bad luck. Sometimes you will have winning streaks, other times you will have losing streaks. The more you play, the more the good luck and bad luck cancel out. Your average results are called your Expected Value (EV) and the size of your lucky streaks is called the variance. Variance is how we measure the size of the swings you can expect. It is often helpful to know what kind of swings to expect so that you can know how much money you will need. Here is some more information on calculating and using variance:
(Dead link: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/...g_And_Risk.htm)
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=21055
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=12176
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?p=11980

-Sonny-
Click to expand...
I did take statistics in college so some of this is coming backt o me. I was wondering, I heard that at one point, after playing SO MANY hands, you will be almost positive no matter what, is this true? Also, lets say theoretically I wanted to play a 5 dollar minimum table and "succeed" in the long run, how much of a bankroll would I typically need. Also, can you like make a list of things I should excel/perfect in before I decide to go back to a blackjack table. I know perfect basic strat, hi-lo count/true count. Also, speaking of counts, I know there are numerous other different kinds of counting systems, do you recommend any other systems? I usually play H17, 6D, DAS, DOA, no surrender allowed.
 
R

rrwoods

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
noobycount said:
lets say theoretically I wanted to play a 5 dollar minimum table and "succeed" in the long run, how much of a bankroll would I typically need. ... H17, 6D, DAS, DOA, no surrender allowed.
Click to expand...
Depends on your spread and the penetration really. Those rules aren't terrible but they aren't great either. The penetration is what will really make or break this game. It also depends on your risk tolerance.

Wild-ass-guess: Spreading 5-60 with 1.5 decks cut off, you want around $5,000 for a 10% RoR. That's just pulling numbers out of my ass based on prior experience; what you really want is CVData telling you what you should bet.

In general, if you spread less, you need less starting cash; but your edge will also be decreased.
 
N

noobycount

Member
#9
#9
rrwoods said:
Depends on your spread and the penetration really. Those rules aren't terrible but they aren't great either. The penetration is what will really make or break this game. It also depends on your risk tolerance.

Wild-ass-guess: Spreading 5-60 with 1.5 decks cut off, you want around $5,000 for a 10% RoR. That's just pulling numbers out of my ass based on prior experience; what you really want is CVData telling you what you should bet.

In general, if you spread less, you need less starting cash; but your edge will also be decreased.
Click to expand...
What is penetration? And what are considered really good rules? I thought those rules were good besides the no surrender allowed part.
 
A

AussiePlayer

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
N

noobycount

Member
#11
#11
AussiePlayer said:
Penetration is how far into the shoe the cards are dealt before the dealer shuffles.

This page will give you the house edge for your local rules and also a proper basic strategy (this can change with different rules)
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=6+decks&soft17=h17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=ns&peek=yes
Click to expand...
so what is considered a "good" penetration? is there a read on this? And the casino that I go to, they have a machine that pre-shuffles the cards before they are dealt. No, not a CSM but just a SM that pre-shuffles it.. so the dealer just takes the cards out of the machine, lets a player cut it, and then he throws the decks into a shoe. When playing, i notice that there is still about like 1-2 decks left before they reshuffle and put a new set of decks into the shoe.
 
A

AussiePlayer

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
noobycount said:
so what is considered a "good" penetration? is there a read on this? And the casino that I go to, they have a machine that pre-shuffles the cards before they are dealt. No, not a CSM but just a SM that pre-shuffles it.. so the dealer just takes the cards out of the machine, lets a player cut it, and then he throws the decks into a shoe. When playing, i notice that there is still about like 1-2 decks left before they reshuffle and put a new set of decks into the shoe.
Click to expand...
The deeper the better, I think 4.5/6 is about usual. The key is to finding dealers who cut deeper into the deck as it is often different from dealer to dealer within the same store. Lesson 11 in Kens Blackjack school covers the basics. If you haven't been through the lessons yet, this is a great free resource rather than buying books (I should have mentioned that earlier!)

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackjack-school/
 
R

rrwoods

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
That's an index chart, and it appears it's for Hi-Lo. I don't know why this is, but for some reason index charts never seem to explain what the indices actually mean, which is especially confusing when all the indices mean different things.

All the soft hands (A2 - A9) and the hard 9 - 11 indices are double indices. You double down at or above the index number.

The stiffs (hard 12 - 16) are stand indices. Stand at or above the index number (hit below it). Note that the basic strategy stand plays (except for 16v10) are all 0 or negative.

If you are just getting into counting, then memorizing this whole chart is both overkill and error-prone. For now you want to focus on the "Illustrious 18" (see Blackjack Attack by Don Schlesinger). Eventually you may want to expand your index knowledge with more indices (and possibly fudging) but don't try to tackle 30 indices right off the bat.
 
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