New Friends

[Bojack1]

Its been a week since some new friends of mine have flown back home. First let me say it was a pleasure meeting the likes of RJT and his girlfriend. Next let me say they were actually very skilled AP's which pleasantly surprised me due to the fact most that I meet with severely overestimate their skills. This was not the case here as they actually undersold themselves to what their real abilities were. I was glad to have them participate with my team for a couple of trips while they were here, as they were partly responsible for us breaking 2 banks during their stay. I was pleased to see how easily they were able to adapt to the much different casino atmosphere here as opposed to th UK. It goes to show if you can play this game well, well than you can play this game period.

It leads me to address something. It took huge amounts of trust on many parties for this meeting to occur. I had never met RJT and his girlfriend but a friend of mine spoke highly enough about them that I thought it worth the risk meeting up with them. They never met me but trusted enough to fly from Europe to meet me. They had a lot to lose if I wasn't who I was supposed to be. On top of that I have a team that needs to trust me bringing in strangers to play for a couple of weeks. Well I must say it worked out great. Of course they needed to prove to us they could play by passing some checkouts, but after they did with very little problem, they were in to play when we needed them.

It leads me to say, so many have gone on about trust issues, and the dark and ugly side of people, and what happens to those that give in to trusting others. Well like I said before, if you are scum, you attract scum. If you put yourself in compromising positions due to deviant behavior, you get what you deserve. You cannot run a blackjack team without trust. You also can't run one successfully being stupid. I have run one for many years, so either I am just lucky, or I know what I'm talking about. I think its more a combination of the 2. Also it comes back to the company that you keep. I trust in my friends character enough to trust his judgement of others. It goes back to the same thing, if you hang out with lowlifes, chances are you might not be able to depend on their so called better judgement on others.

Anyway, over the years I have met a few people who've wanted help playing, who wanted to prove me wrong about playing, and just wanted to talk playing. Most seemed to want more but never had the desire to get it. As I think I am getting closer to the end of my serious playing days, I say it was to nice meet some people that have real goals and a means to reach them. RJT is the real deal, I'm quite sure he and his girl are going to do quite well.

 

[zengrifter]

It leads me to say, so many have gone on about trust issues, and the dark and ugly side of people, and what happens to those that give in to trusting others.

No, only when it comes to me. zg

 

[RJT]

I'm sitting here wondering how to give an appropriate response to that.
I think the first thing is to say "thank you!", "so much!". We had a great time out stateside with you and honestly couldn't have felt more welcomed by you or your team. It was an experience that neither of us will ever forget and as i said before we left, one i hope we can repeat many times in the coming years.
Before i go any further i'd like to say this to anyone reading - never be too trusting of what you read on message boards. People are rarely what they want you to believe they are. We spent months on end building up a knowledge of each other before we ever actually made any solid plans to travel any distance or play together.
It took a lot of trust from both parties - Bojack risked creating tension on his team and entrusting team money to 2 people he had never met before and we risked ending up in an airport in the US with no one to meet us and no where to go. A big leap of faith on both our parts (although we would never have made it had Bojack not done so first by offering us his hospitality).
What i would like to make very clear though is that; nobody was stabbed of killed, we didn't lose all our money - we never had to risked any, we were paid in an open, honest and fair way that was explained before hand and had a generally great time. It's been one of the best experiences of both our lives, we've met some amazing people and made some excellent friends along the way (not to mention learning a bucket load about how to play the game).
I suppose - even taking into account the cautious attitude that you should show at all times when considering meeting or playing with anyone today - this is offered as a counter point to those out there who have had only negative experiences of other people and their intentions. While caution is always a good idea, don't let paranoia make you believe that everyone else will screw you. Some of the best experiences - and biggest advantages - in life can only be gained through trust, co-operation and friendship with other people.
On a lighter and different note i would like to say firstly thank you very much again to Bojack - your opinion of our play is a huge compliment to us. It was a real privilege to have your time and insight into the game and a damn good laugh getting to know you and the people you play with.
I know that a lot of people here think very highly of Bojack, and i know that i'm posting essentially anonymously so this is pretty much worthless as any sort of proof, but for those of you who do listen to what this guy says, you can learn a lot. He is a real pro actually making good money out of the game. I thought I knew my stuff and played a good game until I met Bojack and the people who play with him. Don’t get me wrong, I still think I’m pretty good, but your BP’s are on a totally different level Bojack. One I hope to achieve someday.
Anyway, thanks again Bojack and I hope this does what it’s intended to do and takes away some of the negativity that can become so overwhelming in a field that requires so much secrecy and anonymity.

RJT.

 

[nightspirit]

Glad to hear that everything went so well for you both! I always wondered, when you finally meet each other! Also nice, that you share your experiences with the public. I think the people who continuous read this board, knew it for a long time that you both (along with Sonny) are the real deal! Your advices were always very helpful and well appreciated!! Everyone of the readers and posters must make the decision for himself whom we trust and which advice we follow. This decision was very easy by you three!

 

[JoeV]

I think its cool that things worked out great for you guys. I have a few questions though. RJT what made you so sure it was a good idea to travel all that way to play with someone you didn't even know? I mean I think Bojack sounds like he knows something but I'm not sure I would take the kind of chance you did. What is meant buy breaking banks? I hope you guys aren't robbing banks-just kidding. What type of team play did you guys do? How did you know how to play with a team you never played with before? What kind of money were you guys playing with? Lastly , was that you guys in AC last weekend?

 

[RJT]

I think its cool that things worked out great for you guys. I have a few questions though. RJT what made you so sure it was a good idea to travel all that way to play with someone you didn't even know? I mean I think Bojack sounds like he knows something but I'm not sure I would take the kind of chance you did. What is meant buy breaking banks? I hope you guys aren't robbing banks-just kidding. What type of team play did you guys do? How did you know how to play with a team you never played with before? What kind of money were you guys playing with? Lastly , was that you guys in AC last weekend?

Well as Bojack mentioned we have a mutual friend (not that i knew that this friend knew Bojack, or that this friend was actually involved other than having spoken to Bojack about me). After that it was a lot of talking really. I spent a lot of time (as i'm sure Bojack can attest too) asking questions. Part of what gave me the confidence to travel was that the level of knowledge and understanding of the game that Bojack showed in answering my questions. Not to toot my own horn, but i'm fairly good at spotting when someone is bulls****** with regards to the game and everything that was said added up.
After a while we started communicating over the phone and again my level of confidence that Bojack was not only what he said he was, but also a good person was once again bolstered. So at that point we decided to take the risk of investing our bankroll to go out and see. It could be seen as a big risk, but as i said before eventually it comes down to trust and the best things in life all involve trust.
To answer the other questions;
Breaking a bank is meeting a win target. So if you set a $10000 win target you break the bank when you win $10000.
Fairly standard BP/spotter technique. Obviously we were only playing as spotters.
The format for play is fairly standard so once the other guys have been through the basics and the little nuances, it's easy enough to adjust. The most important part is that you are good enough to pass the check-outs. After that it's all easy.
I'm not going to give values of units and what not as i don't think it's my place, but big enough to be making a very good amount of money.
And lastly it wasn't us and it wasn't Bojack playing AC last weekend. We'd left the states before then, but that post did peak my curiosity enough to ask about it lol.

RJT.

 

[21forme]

And I thought breaking the bank meant you won so much, the cage had to order more cash from the vault to pay you :grin:

 

[JoeV]

So breaking bank means hitting a win target, than what? What do you do with the money? Is it part of the bankroll? I assume at least some of it is payed to the players but doesn't some have to go to your bankroll to keep it going at full strength. I imagine this must be a good team but there has to be times they lose money, what happens if you don't reach your target. I know when I have a win I just reinvest my money so I can keep building my bankroll to have a bigger unit and to help cushion future losses. How can having win targets help keep the bankroll safe and pay players? Sorry for all the questions but I eventually want to build a team and I like to hear from actual players how they do it. And Bojack you said you were thinking about giving up serious play. Why do that if you are making good money? I can't believe you are so old that you can't play anymore, christ I see oldtimers in wheelchairs playing.

 

[RJT]

Lol, perhaps i wasn't clear - in fact i know i wasn't - about this team. They have all the bankroll that they want. They can play at the maximum unit that they deem acceptable. Any higher would be too risky and too obvious.
So when they break bank they split up the winnings between the players and the investor (which are currently the same thing). They have losing sessions, but they've never gone longer - and i hope i'm not over stepping any lines here - than 26 days with out meeting a win target. You've got to remember that with a team of players you can get through a massive number of hands very qu7ickly, so leveling out the varience happens a lot quicker as well. They are already playing with what they feel is an acceptable RoR so they are quite comfortable splitting up the win whenever they meet the win target.
Don't worry about the questions. Part of the reason we've discussed this on the board is to allow for questions. And as to why Bojack is giving up - it's certainly nothing to do with being old lol and is certainly nothing to do with his ablitity to play. The lifestyle that comes with professional advantage play doesn't fit with everything that's important in life so sometimes you have to seriously consider what you want. Right now i'm a teacher. I could give that up for a far less secure pro dreams - part of me wants to - but i would have to be very sure of what i was doing before i would ever give up the stable income and comfortable lifestyle that teaching allows me. So it's not always about ability.

RJT.

 

[Bojack1]

So breaking bank means hitting a win target, than what? What do you do with the money? Is it part of the bankroll? I assume at least some of it is payed to the players but doesn't some have to go to your bankroll to keep it going at full strength. I imagine this must be a good team but there has to be times they lose money, what happens if you don't reach your target. I know when I have a win I just reinvest my money so I can keep building my bankroll to have a bigger unit and to help cushion future losses. How can having win targets help keep the bankroll safe and pay players? Sorry for all the questions but I eventually want to build a team and I like to hear from actual players how they do it. And Bojack you said you were thinking about giving up serious play. Why do that if you are making good money? I can't believe you are so old that you can't play anymore, christ I see oldtimers in wheelchairs playing.

I think RJT pretty much answered all the questions here. Just to add a bit about my decision to stop playing seriously, first off, not just yet but soon. Secondly its not that I will completely stop playing, but in the near future I will no longer keep the schedule I keep now. It will be more recreational. I will however keep my investment in this team and maybe others so even with very little play I'll still be making money off the game. As long as I can have a say in the training and recruitment of players, I am confident this will always be a lucrative investment. Its not that I am too old to play, at least I hope not I'm only turning 40 next month, its that I do not want to miss out on certain things that I have not had due to my current lifestyle. I have been lucky enough with my life decisions that I have earned the comfort level of trying new things.

 

[nightspirit]

RJT, could you please tell a bit more about the checkout you have to pass? Was it a test especially for spotters or is the test equal to a BP checkout? With other words, must every member of the team pass the same test?

 

[RJT]

No. Each test is specifically designed to test the job that that player will be performing. So as we were new to the team we only sat the Spotter check-out. On paper this was actually very easy. Play through 3 6 deck shoes (stacked to give certain types of count on each round) with no more than 3 counting mistakes, where if you are off on the count by 2 that counts as 2 mistakes.
As i said pretty easy and if we'd been sitting at home or in the casino that would be a total breeze. But once you've flown half way around the world and are sitting in a room with 2 guys, one of which you only met for an hour or so the day before and the other who you've never met, getting examined on a skill that up till that point in your life you've always been the best you know at and knowing that they are both a lot better than you and are deciding whether or not you are any good - then you start to feel the pressure lol.
Now the BP test is a lot more difficult, and that's one that in the near future i hope to pass.....

RJT.

 

[nightspirit]

Thanks and good luck for BP test! I'm certain you will pass it!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

In the world of reality, they are the spotters/play callers who need to have the stronger counting skills because they have more opportunity to reverse the count and are subject to more mental fatigue.

He also needs the stronger table deportment to be able to call the BP in and signal the count to him without being detected, and to stop the game long enough for the BP to physically get to the table.

 

[Bojack1]

In the world of reality, they are the spotters/play callers who need to have the stronger counting skills because they have more opportunity to reverse the count and are subject to more mental fatigue.

He also needs the stronger table deportment to be able to call the BP in and signal the count to him without being detected, and to stop the game long enough for the BP to physically get to the table.

This is not a truly accurate statement. First off there is a distinct difference between a spotter and what you refer to as a play caller, which in common circles its called a signaler. As far as a spotter goes his job is fairly easy, he just counts, and yes passes off the count but that is hardly mentally taxing. A spotter does not need to figure bets, play any indices, and is never counting for more than 2 hours at a time. Not to mention that if the spotter is good, his time counting will be broken up by wonging out of severely negative counts and positive counts when calling in the BP. So in reality a spotter usually never counts more than 20 to 30 minutes straight, and many time much less. If that amount of just counting fatigues you, you don't belong in a casino trying to count. A signaler is basically a big player that has all the skills needed to count, bet, play indices, and signal to others what to do. As a spotter your job is to count tables and thats it. As a big player you need many more skills including the mastering of table interaction. Its easy for a spotter he only wongs out, and only starts counting new shoes. Not to mention many times they're just backcounting, which is real easy if you're calling someone else in to play once that count is good. The BP needs to jump in and out of tables pretty much unnoticed, usually with fairly large bets. Its not hard, but if you are thinking too hard what you are doing it leaves little room for anything else. This is the reality of this type of play.

 

[RJT]

Right before i start this - i'm not posting this just to be a jerk, but seriously i have to ask you AM :

Where did you gain this understanding of the "reality" of team play?

Every post you've ever made on the subject has stated you adversion due to trust issues (although i did notice you posting to see if people wanted to backcount for you in AC recently - http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=7014 - which seems odd given your trust disposition). So where are you gaining this indepth knowledge of what it take to play on a team?
I've never professed to be the most experienced in this area myself, but i do know several people who either have played or currently do play on very sucessful teams. Alongside this, i have engaged in play with a highly successful team and witnessed first hand how they operate. And you know what - all of the advice i've received and my own personal experience tells me that the statement you just made is absolute rubbish.
Yes the spotter is subject to more mental fatigue just due to drudgery, but the truth of the matter is that the spotter is not subjected to the stress of placing high bets while keeping the count, does not have the emotional stress of knowing how how the playing session is actually going (i.e. wins and losses), does not have to deal with pit personel who are keen to a) get him rated and b) keep an eye on him, does not have to make betting/playing decisions (aka TC calculations on a fast and regular basis) and fit in and look natural playing large amounts.
As to calling in the BP, it really ain't rocket science. You put the signal out to indicate you have a positive shoe, when the BP comes over you pass the count using a code word that's specifically chosen to fit into the casino environment and let the BP do his job. The words can and should be used in a sentence and if the BP doesn't catch the signal there's a signal to get you to repeat.
So come on, tell us about your team play experience.....

RJT.

 

[JoeV]

No. Each test is specifically designed to test the job that that player will be performing. So as we were new to the team we only sat the Spotter check-out. On paper this was actually very easy. Play through 3 6 deck shoes (stacked to give certain types of count on each round) with no more than 3 counting mistakes, where if you are off on the count by 2 that counts as 2 mistakes.
As i said pretty easy and if we'd been sitting at home or in the casino that would be a total breeze. But once you've flown half way around the world and are sitting in a room with 2 guys, one of which you only met for an hour or so the day before and the other who you've never met, getting examined on a skill that up till that point in your life you've always been the best you know at and knowing that they are both a lot better than you and are deciding whether or not you are any good - then you start to feel the pressure lol.
Now the BP test is a lot more difficult, and that's one that in the near future i hope to pass.....

RJT.

Alright what does a BP test consist of? The spotter test sounds pretty easy, I think I could pass that, can I be on the team.

 

[Sonny]

Alright what does a BP test consist of?

That’s probably when you get into all the fun stuff like TC conversions, indices, betting ramps, dealer mistakes, cover, etc. Johnny C talks about the checkout procedures for the MIT team in his interview:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/interviewJC.htm

Obviously I don’t know exactly what Bojack’s checkouts are like but I’m sure many of his tests are pretty similar. After all, the skills are the same. Counting cards is counting cards.

-Sonny-

 

[Automatic Monkey]

This is not a truly accurate statement. First off there is a distinct difference between a spotter and what you refer to as a play caller, which in common circles its called a signaler. As far as a spotter goes his job is fairly easy, he just counts, and yes passes off the count but that is hardly mentally taxing. A spotter does not need to figure bets, play any indices, and is never counting for more than 2 hours at a time. Not to mention that if the spotter is good, his time counting will be broken up by wonging out of severely negative counts and positive counts when calling in the BP. So in reality a spotter usually never counts more than 20 to 30 minutes straight, and many time much less. If that amount of just counting fatigues you, you don't belong in a casino trying to count. A signaler is basically a big player that has all the skills needed to count, bet, play indices, and signal to others what to do. As a spotter your job is to count tables and thats it. As a big player you need many more skills including the mastering of table interaction. Its easy for a spotter he only wongs out, and only starts counting new shoes. Not to mention many times they're just backcounting, which is real easy if you're calling someone else in to play once that count is good. The BP needs to jump in and out of tables pretty much unnoticed, usually with fairly large bets. Its not hard, but if you are thinking too hard what you are doing it leaves little room for anything else. This is the reality of this type of play.

The difference between the two terms as I'm using them is that a spotter calls in a BP and doesn't need to tell him what to do, and a play caller calls in a gorilla and does tell him what to do.

A BP does not need to use any indices if he thinks it might screw him up. Counter's Basic Strategy is sufficient. However no matter what a BP does, his play can't be any better than the information given to him by the spotter. If the spotter has screwed up, it is just like the BP has screwed up. Being a spotter spends 100% of his time counting and a BP does not, the counting skills of the spotter need to be better than that of the BP, who could just come in and flat bet without counting until the end of the shoe and be playing with a large advantage, if he so chose. Therefore I have to call shenanigans if anyone claims the BP has to be a more skilled counter than a spotter.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Right before i start this - i'm not posting this just to be a jerk, but seriously i have to ask you AM :

Where did you gain this understanding of the "reality" of team play?

Every post you've ever made on the subject has stated you adversion due to trust issues (although i did notice you posting to see if people wanted to backcount for you in AC recently - http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=7014 - which seems odd given your trust disposition).

Actually, no, I asked if anyone wanted to backcount with me in AC. I would never ask someone to backcount for me unless I was planning on making enough money to pay both him and myself fairly, which I would not be, because I understand the mathematics of blackjack and just what kind of stakes you have to be playing to do that. I have played with others a few times, but mostly just sharing information, not money, which is the same thing. Part-timers cannot comingle bankroll the way full-timers can and keep things equitable, not without micromanaging each other's lives.

But it's good to hear that you trust others, and that you might be willing to let me hold your money. Here, I'm a reasonable and hard-working AP, but once I find myself in a gaming venue like AC with thousands of dollars in my pocket, I turn into Mr. Hyde. Did you know I'm a sexual compulsive who "swings both ways" and I cannot resist any kind of sexual offer from any person, no matter how risky? I'm also a drug addict. Ten minutes after you hand me the money I'll make some excuse to leave the casino and march right down to Arctic Avenue to cop. Good God, can you imagine what I'd do to you if you tried to stop me? I'll say or do anything to get high. But you'll probably never see me; I'll just sneak out and make up a story about bad variance, maybe hit you up a few more times before you figure it out.

These things I just said about myself aren't true, which is also exactly what I would say if they were true. But you are indeed interested in risking your bankroll in order to find out, right? Ah what a sport, thanks!