Newbie looking for advice on count systems

[MichaelW2608]

I'm new to card counting and have a question I would like to ask all of you more experienced folk. I've briefly discussed this topic with a few people in the chat room and wanted to get a few more opinions before I make a decision.

I've been studying basic strategy and feel like I'm ready to begin learning a count system. I've read the online book at qfit and Blackbelt in Blackjack, but neither answered these questions for me. If I learn a level 1 system am I going to reach a point in the future where I'll feel the need to move up to a level 2 system? Would it be beneficial to take the time to learn a level 2 system like Zen count or FELT from the start? I understand that they have a higher PE making them more effective for single deck games, but are also more difficult. Thus resulting in errors that can negate their advantages. Are shoe games with good rules and good pen a scarcity? Or would I be able to find plenty of them and never worry about having to play single or DD games?

I hope these aren't repeated questions that have been discussed in a different thread. I searched around for awhile but found nothing.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge and experience.

 

[jack.jackson]

I'm new to card counting and have a question I would like to ask all of you more experienced folk. I've briefly discussed this topic with a few people in the chat room and wanted to get a few more opinions before I make a decision.

I've been studying basic strategy and feel like I'm ready to begin learning a count system. I've read the online book at qfit and Blackbelt in Blackjack, but neither answered these questions for me. If I learn a level 1 system am I going to reach a point in the future where I'll feel the need to move up to a level 2 system? Would it be beneficial to take the time to learn a level 2 system like Zen count or FELT from the start? I understand that they have a higher PE making them more effective for single deck games, but are also more difficult. Thus resulting in errors that can negate their advantages. Are shoe games with good rules and good pen a scarcity? Or would I be able to find plenty of them and never worry about having to play single or DD games?

I hope these aren't repeated questions that have been discussed in a different thread. I searched around for awhile but found nothing.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Take a look at this for starters. Maybe it can answer some of your questions.

http://www.qfit.com/card-counting.htm

You might consider how dedicated and how much time your willing to put in to it and what type of games you'll be playing. As far as starting out with Zen I would say yes. Its a well balanced count for all type of games. Start by learning and recognizing your two-card combos first.

 

[MichaelW2608]

Thanks Jack, I have visited qfit many times and it has been a great resource. My main question was about the type of games. Preferably I would just play shoe games and use a much simpler count like hi-lo or KO. What I really want to know is are there plenty of favorable shoe games? Maybe for now I will just learn Hi-Lo and then if I have trouble finding good shoe games I'll switch to Hi-Opt I for single deck. From what I've read that seems like a pretty common strategy. Again, thanks for your knowledge.

 

[Deathclutch]

If you are going to learn a balanced count I honestly would say you might as well start off with a count such as Zen, Mentor, or FELT. Level 2's really aren't that much harder than 1's and other than the adding and subtracting they all work just the same. Might as well be ahead of the game.

 

[assume_R]

I vote Zen

Others may have different opinions... but if you have the time and dedication to pursue this, I see no reason to not start with Zen. It will only help you in the long run.

If you want to start counting immediately, you can use KO, but you'll probably want to move on to a balanced system later (therefore, if you have time to practice and aren't in a rush to begin immediately, start with a balanced system).

The difference between a level 1 and level 2 system (like HiLo and Zen) is moderate, but if you're going to be willing to take the time to learn indices for HiLo, you might as well start off with Zen.

 

[FLASH1296]

Go ZEN n o w.

 

[muppet]

What I really want to know is are there plenty of favorable shoe games?

where are you looking? if vegas then the cbjn is a is a good starting point, but be aware that some of the information is missing, outdated, or incorrect.

for what it's worth, i use hi-lo - but i don't play very often.

i recommend playing 2d over 6d because from the sims i ran, it makes more $ per hour

 

[MichaelW2608]

Thanks for all the advice

I thank everyone who has offered their advice. Muppet, I will mainly be playing in the Midwest. I am in college so I will have to keep it in driving range. Me and some of my buddies are planning on hitting up Vegas over fall break though!

 

[psyduck]

a question for counters

For the following rules and flat betting, which system will perform better, hilo or zen:

6deck, DAS, H17, LS, double on any two, split to 4 hands including As, 75-80% pen.

 

[FLASH1296]

At all games, all sets of rules, penetration, etc. ZEN always handily outperforms Hi-Lo and ALL other Level One counts. That is NOT debatable.

 

[psyduck]

At all games, all sets of rules, penetration, etc. ZEN always handily outperforms Hi-Lo and ALL other Level One counts. That is NOT debatable.

With flat betting, my simulation showed a tie. Does anyone else care to run a sim?

 

[muppet]

At all games, all sets of rules, penetration, etc. ZEN always handily outperforms Hi-Lo and ALL other Level One counts. That is NOT debatable.

hmm..how about a 15 deck shoe

 

[FLASH1296]

IF flat betting — the count with the highest Playing Efficiency is the winner. That is (certainly) the ZEN COUNT.

Flat betting removes the Betting Correlation as a factor.

Hi-Lo has a very strong Betting Correlation and weak Playing Efficiency.

The Insurance Correlation also plays a roll of course. There too, ZEN outperforms Hi-Lo.

Ergo, Hi-Lo is a poor choice for a flat betting scenario.

 

[psyduck]

IF flat betting — the count with the highest Playing Efficiency is the winner. That is (certainly) the ZEN COUNT.

Flat betting removes the Betting Correlation as a factor.

Hi-Lo has a very strong Betting Correlation and weak Playing Efficiency.

The Insurance Correlation also plays a roll of course. There too, ZEN outperforms Hi-Lo.

Ergo, Hi-Lo is a poor choice for a flat betting scenario.

Flash,

That was exactly what I thought. My trouble is I cannot prove it with simulation.

 

[assume_R]

Flash,

That was exactly what I thought. My trouble is I cannot prove it with simulation.

What exact conditions did you use?

 

[psyduck]

Thanks, Assume R.

The specific parameters are on previous page. I guess your unit size must be 10. I used unit size 1 and after about 50 million rounds, it was a tie.

 

[psyduck]

Assume R,

By using unit size of 10, you had three significant figures in winrate. I used unit size of 1 and the winrate only had two significant figures. That was probably why I did not see much difference.

 

[assume_R]

Ah, yes, and also look at your "SE" (standard error) with only 50 million rounds. It was probably larger than mine, which signifies less certainty in the result.

 

[assume_R]

Okay, my sim was not using LS. Now that I look at the indices included in CVData (at least in my version), I see that "Complete HiLo" includes a full set of Surrender indices, while "Complete Zen" does not include any surrender indices, which will presumably have a HUGE effect.

If they were tied without any surrender indices in Zen, that might be another indication of the power of Zen.

 

[muppet]

oh..well if you're flat betting then the higher PE will be best. but where's the fun in that?