Notes from a newbie

horse_johnson · Feb 22, 2011

I've only spent a few hours reading through this forum and through QFit's book, and I decided to set aside 5K or so and hit up my small local casino to practice counting. It's a DD game in the Midwest, table min/max is 5-100, pen varies from a little over 50% to as good as 65%ish depending on dealer, H17, DAS. There is only one DD table in the whole house and it's dealt out of a shoe.

I used Full KO. I know it's not ideal for this application but it's about as much I can handle as a beginner. I bet a 1-10 spread (1 unit=$5) and wonged a lot. Sometimes I would just sit down and pretend to watch TV and look back at the cards whenever I had to. Often I would only play the first hand or two and if the count was neutral or worse, just mutter "aww naww" or something and quit, continuing to "watch TV" until the count rose, at which point I would come in and announce I was "feeling it." Basically my behavior was pretty obvious. Went to the bathroom constantly. I played less than half the hands of any given shoe, except for the rare moments when I was heads-up. Sometimes, when the PC was elsewhere, I wouldn't even play the first hand and backcount. Of course, there were quite a few shoes I didn't play at all because of mediocre counts, so I spent a lot of time just sitting there.

After a while I started to wonder how long this would last. After all, it's a small house and this is its only DD table. They must be looking at it. The table just happened to be right where the PC is always perched, and for some reason the PC would often be watching my game. When I colored up for the last time, I think the PC may have given me a dirty look, but it could have been my imagination. I played rated for the whole time, maybe 10+ hours all in one weekend, and they didn't seem too interested in comping me anything. I got a buffet but had to be real persistent about it. I also got a $1 discount on an ice cream cone.

I ran into some good luck and won about $500.

Questions:
--Am I way overbetting my BR? I could afford to lose the $5k but it would really suck. $5k is 100 max bets, but doesn't that still leave me with a sizable ROR? How much did my wonging cut down on that?
--Should I downsize my max bet to $40 (1-8 spread)? I don't feel too comfortable with max bets of $50, given the size of my bank, but then again if I lower my spread I'll have lower EV and thus higher ROR right?
--Did I estimate the pen correctly? When the table was full (7 people), the shoe would only last for 3-5 hands.

I suppose, if I go any further with this, I should buy CVData and improve my game. I'm going to quit for now.

Shoofly · Feb 22, 2011

horse_johnson said:

I've only spent a few hours reading through this forum and through QFit's book, and I decided to set aside 5K or so and hit up my small local casino to practice counting. It's a DD game in the Midwest, table min/max is 5-100, pen varies from a little over 50% to as good as 65%ish depending on dealer, H17, DAS. There is only one DD table in the whole house and it's dealt out of a shoe.

I used Full KO. I know it's not ideal for this application but it's about as much I can handle as a beginner. I bet a 1-10 spread (1 unit=$5) and wonged a lot. Sometimes I would just sit down and pretend to watch TV and look back at the cards whenever I had to. Often I would only play the first hand or two and if the count was neutral or worse, just mutter "aww naww" or something and quit, continuing to "watch TV" until the count rose, at which point I would come in and announce I was "feeling it." Basically my behavior was pretty obvious. Went to the bathroom constantly. I played less than half the hands of any given shoe, except for the rare moments when I was heads-up. Sometimes, when the PC was elsewhere, I wouldn't even play the first hand and backcount. Of course, there were quite a few shoes I didn't play at all because of mediocre counts, so I spent a lot of time just sitting there.

After a while I started to wonder how long this would last. After all, it's a small house and this is its only DD table. They must be looking at it. The table just happened to be right where the PC is always perched, and for some reason the PC would often be watching my game. When I colored up for the last time, I think the PC may have given me a dirty look, but it could have been my imagination. I played rated for the whole time, maybe 10+ hours all in one weekend, and they didn't seem too interested in comping me anything. I got a buffet but had to be real persistent about it. I also got a $1 discount on an ice cream cone.

I ran into some good luck and won about $500.

Questions:
--Am I way overbetting my BR? I could afford to lose the $5k but it would really suck. $5k is 100 max bets, but doesn't that still leave me with a sizable ROR? How much did my wonging cut down on that?
--Should I downsize my max bet to $40 (1-8 spread)? I don't feel too comfortable with max bets of $50, given the size of my bank, but then again if I lower my spread I'll have lower EV and thus higher ROR right?
--Did I estimate the pen correctly? When the table was full (7 people), the shoe would only last for 3-5 hands.

I suppose, if I go any further with this, I should buy CVData and improve my game. I'm going to quit for now.

The place you are playing has some very interesting (and attractive) features. First, there are very few places that offer $5 DD. For example, I live in an area with 6 casinos. One has $15 DD, all the others are $25. Your question about pen. 65% is acceptable. 50% no good.

Another unusual feature is being able to wong in and out during the same shoe. Most DD tables are no mid-shoe entry.

A 1-10 spread for DD might be considered a bit wide for a player's home casino. However, I don't think anyone is going to pay much attention to a $50 max bet. 1% of BR for a max bet is reasonable, especially if losing the BR will not create financial disaster.

Each place has its own policy on comps, but only the most generous are going to give you food comps for play at a $5 table.

BUZZARD · Feb 22, 2011

This made my morning a little better- which is nice- cus it has sucked so far.
I use KO myself for 6 deckers and 8 deck monsters. Keep your $50 max bet-you should do fine- if your count accurate. Do you have access to 6 deckers? If they have decent/good penetration you may want to play those instead. There are many more basic strategy deviations in 2 deck I am assuming you are aware of that will confound a noob. If you find more often than not the penetration is around 55-60% on these 2 deckers I reckon you just ought to say 'aww naww' or even 'I'm gunna git outta here n take me up some bow huntin.'
I find it hilarious and awesome that you were backcounting a 2 decker while refusing to even stand up, muttering aww naww when the count dropped, and demanding free food and discounted ice cream.You go dammit!

farmdoggy · Feb 22, 2011

horse_johnson said:

I don't think you're overbetting, in fact you're at least at 1/2 Kelly or lower even without wonging (I'm not exactly sure, cause I don't know all of the game details). $5000 would suck to lose, but it's not that hard to replace and I'm guessing you have a job.

Sounds like you have a pretty sweet gig... But what are the rules? Obviously BJ pays 3/2 right? DA2? RAS? DAS?(That would be sweet).

Lastly, you already seem to know this, but you shouldn't use KO here. HiLo isn't any harder to use IMO and would serve you better.

horse_johnson · Feb 22, 2011

My general MO was to play the first hand at min bet, then point out something I didn't like about it ("Damn, I lost!" "I'm not playing this, the dealer got a 20!" "I just barely won!" "Quit when I'm ahead!" "This isn't a lucky shoe!" "Aww naww!"") and sit and backcount for a few more hands, then come in at the end if the count was high enough. Once this created the obvious situation of playing only the first hand at $5 and the last hand at $50. The ploppies were whining, the dealer looked at me like I was a jerk, and sure enough it was a stiff that I insured. I lost, but regardless, that probably didn't look too innocent if anyone was watching. Remember the pen was not good at this double decker, so the shoe wouldn't last long even if there was just one other player. Of course the other players hated me. If I could notice the PC watching I would just play all.

I would often wong in when my betting ramp had me at 2x ("key count"), and I bet 8x at the KO "pivot point," 10x everything above that. So 2x-10x doesn't look like so bad of a spread, just 1-5. Then again, even with all the wonging, I had to play a lot of $5 hands. I would guess I was in the computer as a $5 bettor.

It kind of amazed me how much the playability of the game depends on the dealer. I think they are told to cut a whole deck off, and the more competent-looking dealers did just that or maybe just a bit less. One dealer looked like a monkey, made a couple of mistakes when paying me in min bet situations (adding difficulties), and his cuts were all over the place. Another dealer gave great pen, one time only leaving a handful of cards, probably by mistake. Never saw him again though. On average, slightly more than half of the two decks would make their way to the discard tray.

At this DD game you can double on anything, DAS; don't think RSA is allowed and split Aces only get 1 card. No surrender of course. About a .4% HE. I was surprised to find rules like this too, as the other local casinos around here are all 6D, or 2D with worse rules and higher minimums. About an hour away, there's a 6D game with LS and RSA; if it has decent pen (a big if), would that be a better bet for me than the 2D? My local place has 6D too but no surrender and the pen doesn't look very good. For a while I backcounted their 6-deckers but didn't get a count I wanted to play. I learned KO in preparation to play the 6D game and then I encountered this DD game. I use the indices in the KO book, and from what I understand that generally mirrors the I18. It seems to me that only a few have significant power, like splitting tens. But I'm too chicken to split my tens, given that this is the only casino near my home and probably the only game I really want to play within a several hundred mile radius. Maybe I should try it once and see if the dealer calls it out.

I also understand that KO isn't as efficient as balanced counts for this game, but that the gap isn't huge. Correct/inform me if I'm wrong; chances are you know much more than I do.

This casino is 10 miles from my house. I wonder what will happen if I go in and play this game for an hour or two every few days on rotating shifts, just the way I have, with the wonging and so forth. Chances I will be backed off soon? So far I have been only winning, which actually makes it worse. Once I inevitably have a decent-sized session loss, will they ignore me?

FLASH1296 · Feb 22, 2011

You have chosen an UNBALANCED LEVEL ONE Count.
As such you have selected one of the worst ways to go.

The best counts for any "pitch" game include powerhouses like:

[*]Hi-Opt II
[*]Advanced Omega II
[*]Halves

horse_johnson · Feb 22, 2011

It's dealt out of a shoe, but as for counting system maybe that doesn't matter? Anyway, would any unbalanced count be OK for this DD game? I don't want to to track the discard tray if I don't have to.

FLASH1296 · Feb 22, 2011

Unbalanced ZEN ("UBZ") would be the best choice for those too lazy to ...

horse_johnson · Feb 23, 2011

Thanks, I figured as much about needing to learn a better system for DD.

Even though the penetration is poor, I hope I never get busted out of this game. A game with a $100 maxbet might not be of much use to you guys, but for me, I doubt I'll ever move up from a $50 maxbet unless I have a SIGNIFICANT increase in BR (from other sources of course). I don't have a tracking service, but can $5 DD games like this be found with any frequency in LV or elsewhere?

farmdoggy · Feb 23, 2011

horse_johnson said:

Well it did just get a 10% increase

But don't rush it. I have a sneaky suspicion that if you try to make the jump to a 10-100 spread you'll get alot more attention at this table. The max bet is $100 for a reason.

forwhat77 · Feb 23, 2011

I would seriously take the time to learn a balanced count. Personally, I play the same games and started out with Hi-opt 1. I did ok, but since then I have switched to Hi-opt 2, and let me tell ya:grin:
If you're going to take the time to learn, might as well learn right. It may take time to do, but this gives you time to build your bank. It will also get you a lot more money, and is harder to detect since most pits use hi opt 1 to run the cards down.
As for Vegas, games of this sort can be found all over the place..No where near the strip though

horse_johnson · Feb 23, 2011

Do you use the Ace side count with Hi-Opt II?

gamblingghost · Feb 23, 2011

FLASH1296 said:

I always find it interesting when 'halves' is compared to Omega II and Omega ll is put above halves. What is Omega two anyway?? It is the value given to the cards in halves-doubled, thats all. So, you will be dealing with big running counts. And the 5 is not weighted as well and the A is counted as zero. Not good for multiple decks. Just use halves, it is easier and more powerful.

creeping panther · Feb 23, 2011

Horse,

I know where you are playing, don't make a mistake and get yourself booted. I actually think you are already headed in that direction.

The best I have found overall for a variety of reasons if the CP HI-LoLo count for sd and dd games, it will rock the casinos world, but then again,,,, maybe not what you need to be doing where you are playing,,,,just stay Frosty Horse. Remember the saying from the Vietnam days,,,He love me loooong time,,,apply that to this game,,,love it a loooong time,,,that means don't hump it too hard or too fast,,,pace yourself and laaasssttt till the casino gives up all it has to give

:grin::laugh:

Thanks for the postings,

CP

golfnut101 · Feb 24, 2011

unbalanced vs balanced

With his unit size/ spread I find it hard to believe he is really losing much with KO-full as opposed to HiLo. Wonging/utilizing all indices you can playing perfect bs far outweighs using a level II and making mistakes.

Would venture to say he's giving up pennies on his EV...

farmdoggy · Feb 24, 2011

golfnut101 said:

You're probably right. But pennies over what period of time? The OP says that he often plays the first hand of the shoe, wongs out, and wongs back in at the last hand of the shoe. I bet if he were using a balanced count, he'd realize that that second hand was favorable more often than he thought. It's no big deal though... He's happy, doing well. I just think that he'd find Hi-Lo just as easy when it comes to double deck.

Edit: And by the way I agree with you on your statement about index plays and level 2 counts...

forwhat77 · Feb 24, 2011

horse_johnson said:

But of course!!
I tag my aces as letters of the alphabet. first ace A, second ace B, third ace C.
Makes it easier to remember 2E rather than plus 2/5aces

Blue Efficacy · Feb 24, 2011

forwhat77 said:

This is brilliant!

golfnut101 · Feb 24, 2011

side count

yes its these little tidbits, if one is paying attn, can add to the repetoire...this is what I love about this site

Blue Efficacy · Feb 24, 2011

As for the OP, keep doing what you're doing, except cut down on the obnoxious wonging. It's overkill and just asking to be banned. You can still wong, but with a 1-10 spread on a DD you should certainly be a lot more reasonable about it.

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