Officially Over

[wvbjplayer]

Well, my days of card counting are officially over - for good this time. I have the worst luck on planet earth. I only ever win on negative counts, i.e., only when my min. bet is down. I get screwed on every split and DD I make. Everyone else always takes all the face cards. The dealers get more 21s than you can shake a stick at. I am completely and thoroughly disgusted.

To everyone on the message boards, good luck.

wvbjplayer

 

[sagefr0g]

Well, my days of card counting are officially over - for good this time. I have the worst luck on planet earth. I only ever win on negative counts, i.e., only when my min. bet is down. I get screwed on every split and DD I make. Everyone else always takes all the face cards. The dealers get more 21s than you can shake a stick at. I am completely and thoroughly disgusted.

To everyone on the message boards, good luck.

wvbjplayer

sorry about your luck.
just thought i'd mention a point that i believe is the most important point that i've ever learned on from this board or that i've learned from any blackjack book or play experience.
point being you should expect to lose every hand before you play it.

 

[golfnut101]

mindset

point being you should expect to lose every hand before you play it.

hey froggie

Not sure I totally agree. Yes, we know we should be mentally prepared for variance; for losing doubles in hi counts and so on, but, ultimately, why do we bother counting if not for the fact that we beleive we are the favourites. I have to go to the store with a positive mindset or it can spiral pretty quickly. Fear of placing that big bet, tightening up so we lose count, etc. For me personally, if I dont believe I can win, I dont waste my time. Im going in BELIEVING I can win, but fully aware and prepared it can be ugly fo a while.

 

[rukus]

Well, my days of card counting are officially over - for good this time. I have the worst luck on planet earth. I only ever win on negative counts, i.e., only when my min. bet is down. I get screwed on every split and DD I make. Everyone else always takes all the face cards. The dealers get more 21s than you can shake a stick at. I am completely and thoroughly disgusted.

To everyone on the message boards, good luck.

wvbjplayer

if you're serious at all about blackjack, it would be wise to (re-) read snyder's article here and get your expectations in order:
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/wontwin.html

YOU WON'T WIN
By Arnold Snyder
(From Casino Player, November 1997)
© Arnold Snyder 1997


short excerpt to summarize this favorite article of mine from BJF:
"If you are anything like the masses of humanity, if you like to be rewarded for your efforts within some reasonable time frame, you won’t be able to take the fluctuations. Those negative downswings will be bigger, and harder, and longer lasting, and more upsetting, and more unbelievable, than your level of toleration. Your losses will tear at your heart, and fill you with emptiness, and leave you in a state of quiet desperation. I hear this from players over and over again. I hear this from players who claim to have studied diligently, and practiced for hours on end, for weeks and months with a singular dream—to beat the casinos. ".........

and my favorite lines of the article:

"Other card counters will be having champagne parties in their hotel rooms, celebrating that marvelous life of freedom and money and adventure that just seems to come naturally with the lifestyle of a professional gambler. But not for you. You will be among the unfortunate few who, statistically speaking, will be located in the far left tail of the Gaussian curve. Someone has to be there. It will be you.

"I have been in that tail; it is a cold and lonely place. I suspect many of those who write about this game have been there, and they know what a cold and lonely place it is. Every professional card counter I know has been there. And if they have played blackjack professionally for many years, they have been there many times. These players have hearts stronger than mine, and I suspect, stronger than yours. "

haha thanks to ZG for posting a BJF article in another thread cause it led me back to the prized article posted/linked to above...

enjoy,
rukus

 

[sagefr0g]

hey froggie

Not sure I totally agree. Yes, we know we should be mentally prepared for variance; for losing doubles in hi counts and so on, but, ultimately, why do we bother counting if not for the fact that we beleive we are the favourites. I have to go to the store with a positive mindset or it can spiral pretty quickly. Fear of placing that big bet, tightening up so we lose count, etc. For me personally, if I dont believe I can win, I dont waste my time. Im going in BELIEVING I can win, but fully aware and prepared it can be ugly fo a while.

absolutely correct there golfn.
i wasn't referring to winning money. nor did i mean we never win a hand. just that we really should expect to lose the next hand that we set out to play. after all it's a fact that we will lose more hands than we win.
now winning money is another thing. where we win our money is a result of achieving more success with our double downs, blackjacks and insurance bets when we have put optimally increased bets out but not as a result of our winning more hands than we lose. albeit our perfect basic strategy play and use of indices does afford us the most wins we can expect although that is still less wins than loses.
just meant an expectation thing and didn't mean to infer that we don't hold favored status on certain bets. problem is we aren't able to tell for any given hand just when we will get a blackjack, successful insurance bet or successful double down. so really when we make our big bets for the high true counts we should expect to lose the hand. lol

 

[mjbballar23]

absolutely correct there golfn.
i wasn't referring to winning money. nor did i mean we never win a hand. just that we really should expect to lose the next hand that we set out to play. after all it's a fact that we will lose more hands than we win.
now winning money is another thing. where we win our money is a result of achieving more success with our double downs, blackjacks and insurance bets when we have put optimally increased bets out but not as a result of our winning more hands than we lose. albeit our perfect basic strategy play and use of indices does afford us the most wins we can expect although that is still less wins than loses.
just meant an expectation thing and didn't mean to infer that we don't hold favored status on certain bets. problem is we aren't able to tell for any given hand just when we will get a blackjack, successful insurance bet or successful double down. so really when we make our big bets for the high true counts we should expect to lose the hand. lol

Sagefr0g i totally agree with you here. I've come to the point where i always expect the worse and therefore i am must less upset when it actually happens and am pleasantly(though slightly expectantly) surprised to see that things worked out well this time. I've gotten to the point where i no longer sweat the losses and i dont get made when i loose because i know that every thing will work out in the end. However, I have this confidence because i have experienced the big wins and have a very good winning record. If a new counter's first experiences counting were big loses, im not so sure how confidentthey would be that everything was gonna work out.

 

[Kasi]

Well, my days of card counting are officially over - for good this time. I have the worst luck on planet earth.

Well I hope it wasn't alot you lost. If it wasn't, it wasn't enough bankroll lol.

Anyway, good luck to you too.

Check-in once in a while anyway and say hi. Come watch me lose at Mountaineer sometime so you'll feel better lol.

 

[sagefr0g]

Sagefr0g i totally agree with you here. I've come to the point where i always expect the worse and therefore i am must less upset when it actually happens and am pleasantly(though slightly expectantly) surprised to see that things worked out well this time.

you hit the nail right on the head. that's just exactly the point. a great psychological boost when you can know and face the truth. and then enjoy those rare times when your knowledge about the expectation for a successful double down, a blackjack or successful insurance bet is realized when as a result of that expectation some optimal money has been put on the line. and heck you might even get lucky and just win a normal hand with a big bet out lol.

I've gotten to the point where i no longer sweat the losses and i dont get made when i loose because i know that every thing will work out in the end.

some day i hope to get to that point. but still now when i lose big bets (meaning the optimal ones) is when i am in most danger of losing my cool and then steam betting. for me in my experience negative fluctuation in positive advantage situations is nothing but a blip on the radar screen as compared to what overbetting in a steaming episode can do to your bottom line.

However, I have this confidence because i have experienced the big wins and have a very good winning record. If a new counter's first experiences counting were big loses, im not so sure how confidentthey would be that everything was gonna work out.

right that's a good point and perhaps one that unfortunately is probably difficult for Wvplayer to realize on a gut level. i'm sure he know it intellectually.

 

[sagefr0g]

......... Come watch me lose at Mountaineer sometime so you'll feel better lol.

sometime we'll the three of us hit the joint. after all misery love company.
:toast:

 

[Kasi]

sometime we'll the three of us hit the joint. after all misery love company.:toast:

Sounds good - a Fuzzy Counter, a Fuzzy Bettor and a really Fuzzy Bankroll-Management guy lol.

a/k/a The Three Losers :grin:

 

[sagefr0g]

Sounds good - a Fuzzy Counter, a Fuzzy Bettor and a really Fuzzy Bankroll-Management guy lol.

a/k/a The Three Losers :grin:

absolutely........... how can we win!

 

[EasyRhino]

Gee WV, it looks like you gave it almost a month. I don't see how anyone could persevere in the face of such a losing streak!

 

[Kasi]

Gee WV, it looks like you gave it almost a month. I don't see how anyone could persevere in the face of such a losing streak!

Well the sad truth is, unlike mjballar23, golfnut, you, and others who may actually be playing a pos EV game, he wasn't, I'm pretty sure.

Wasn't his counting skills, just bankroll mis-management and how to bet to create a +EV game I'm pretty sure.

Not sure what possessed him to go back with, basically, a certainty of losing sooner or later. So no point in even worrying about variance.

 

[zengrifter]

sorry about your luck.
just thought i'd mention a point that i believe is the most important point that i've ever learned on from this board or that i've learned from any blackjack book or play experience.
point being you should expect to lose every hand before you play it.

EXACTLY - that way I'm NEVER disappointed!
What WVP should know is that the pendulum does swing both ways. (eventually) zg

 

[wvbjplayer]

Gee WV, it looks like you gave it almost a month. I don't see how anyone could persevere in the face of such a losing streak!

Well, since you're having trouble w/ the concept, let me break it down for you syllogistically:

1. Perseverance requires money.
2. I have none.
3. Therefore, I can't persevere.

The logic is delightfully simple. And before you start preaching about bankroll management and all the rest, save your "breath." I'm well aware of the many, many mistakes I made. The biggest one by far was playing on a $25 min. table with such a relatively small bankroll. Unfortunately, that's the lowest min. offered at the only casino w/in a reasonable driving distance of where I live. Guess I should've sprung for a trip to AC, huh?

To everyone else, thanks much for your commiseration.

wvbjplayer

 

[zengrifter]

Well, since you're having trouble w/ the concept, let me break it down for you syllogistically:

1. Perseverance requires money.
2. I have none.
3. Therefore, I can't persevere.

The logic is delightfully simple. And before you start preaching about bankroll management and all the rest, save your "breath." I'm well aware of the many, many mistakes I made. The biggest one by far was playing on a $25 min. table with such a relatively small bankroll. Unfortunately, that's the lowest min. offered at the only casino w/in a reasonable driving distance of where I live. Guess I should've sprung for a trip to AC, huh?

To everyone else, thanks much for your commiseration.

wvbjplayer

How much did you start with and what was your bet size spread? zg

 

[wvbjplayer]

How much did you start with and what was your bet size spread? zg

Around $1,000 (w/ access to another $1,000 I would've preferred not to touch).

$25-50, up to $100 on DD's & splits.

wvbjplayer

 

[wvbjplayer]

if you're serious at all about blackjack, it would be wise to (re-) read snyder's article here and get your expectations in order:
http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/wontwin.html

YOU WON'T WIN
By Arnold Snyder
(From Casino Player, November 1997)
© Arnold Snyder 1997


short excerpt to summarize this favorite article of mine from BJF:
"If you are anything like the masses of humanity, if you like to be rewarded for your efforts within some reasonable time frame, you won’t be able to take the fluctuations. Those negative downswings will be bigger, and harder, and longer lasting, and more upsetting, and more unbelievable, than your level of toleration. Your losses will tear at your heart, and fill you with emptiness, and leave you in a state of quiet desperation. I hear this from players over and over again. I hear this from players who claim to have studied diligently, and practiced for hours on end, for weeks and months with a singular dream—to beat the casinos. ".........

and my favorite lines of the article:

"Other card counters will be having champagne parties in their hotel rooms, celebrating that marvelous life of freedom and money and adventure that just seems to come naturally with the lifestyle of a professional gambler. But not for you. You will be among the unfortunate few who, statistically speaking, will be located in the far left tail of the Gaussian curve. Someone has to be there. It will be you.

"I have been in that tail; it is a cold and lonely place. I suspect many of those who write about this game have been there, and they know what a cold and lonely place it is. Every professional card counter I know has been there. And if they have played blackjack professionally for many years, they have been there many times. These players have hearts stronger than mine, and I suspect, stronger than yours. "

haha thanks to ZG for posting a BJF article in another thread cause it led me back to the prized article posted/linked to above...

enjoy,
rukus

Amen, brother. A-****ing-men.

On the upside, losing all that money restored my faith in God. That God was punishing me for engaging in an inherently seedy, depraved, gluttonous activity honestly seems to me the best explanation for the devastating losses I sustained.

Honestly.

There is none better.

Not one.

wvbjplayer

 

[Bojack1]

Amen, brother. A-****ing-men.

On the upside, losing all that money restored my faith in God. That God was punishing me for engaging in an inherently seedy, depraved, gluttonous activity honestly seems to me the best explanation for the devastating losses I sustained.

Honestly.

There is none better.

Not one.

wvbjplayer

I will be truthful here, its a shame your counting career is over, but its of no surprise. It happens all the time so there is no shame in it. But I will say it would have been more of an act of God for you to win then lose. From the moment you started you were destined to fail, underfunded, overbetting and not having a real grasp of the concept of what counting is. It seems you know this already so excuse me for repeating it, it just makes my point.

I can't compete with ones thoughts on God, and I won't. If you believe that God is keeping you out of the casino so be it, its for the best. Given the road you were taking you would have lost your shirt and could have ended up worse off then now. If you were trying to make money counting cards you were doing it wrong and you ended up with the only real result possible.

I think your position can serve some good to others. If you don't have money to play, then don't play. If you can't put enough money aside so that it won't negatively affect your financial security if you lose it, then you should not step foot in a casino to play until you can. And if the money you can set aside is not enough for you to play properly funded, then have the discipline to wait until it is. And if you income situation is one where you will never be able to fund your bankroll enough, then its time to be honest and think of another activity that doesn't need the same money to do. To me playing as an AP no gluttonous act or any get rich quick scheme. It takes time and effort and in essence you are working for your money. Thats one reason many more fail than succeed as counters because they don't approach it has a task to be mastered, they look it as easy money. Well, another has just found its just not that way.

I'm not a religous person, nor do I knock those that are. But if you want to be totally honest wvbjplayer, what you describe as devaststing losses can easily be described as the inevitable happening to you. That to me that is no divine intervention, its just the unfortunate truth.

 

[sagefr0g]

Amen, brother. A-****ing-men.

On the upside, losing all that money restored my faith in God. That God was punishing me for engaging in an inherently seedy, depraved, gluttonous activity honestly seems to me the best explanation for the devastating losses I sustained.

Honestly.

There is none better.

Not one.

wvbjplayer

I will be truthful here, its a shame your counting career is over, but its of no surprise. It happens all the time so there is no shame in it. But I will say it would have been more of an act of God for you to win then lose. From the moment you started you were destined to fail, underfunded, overbetting and not having a real grasp of the concept of what counting is. It seems you know this already so excuse me for repeating it, it just makes my point.

I can't compete with ones thoughts on God, and I won't. If you believe that God is keeping you out of the casino so be it, its for the best. Given the road you were taking you would have lost your shirt and could have ended up worse off then now. If you were trying to make money counting cards you were doing it wrong and you ended up with the only real result possible.

I think your position can serve some good to others. If you don't have money to play, then don't play. If you can't put enough money aside so that it won't negatively affect your financial security if you lose it, then you should not step foot in a casino to play until you can. And if the money you can set aside is not enough for you to play properly funded, then have the discipline to wait until it is. And if you income situation is one where you will never be able to fund your bankroll enough, then its time to be honest and think of another activity that doesn't need the same money to do. To me playing as an AP no gluttonous act or any get rich quick scheme. It takes time and effort and in essence you are working for your money. Thats one reason many more fail than succeed as counters because they don't approach it has a task to be mastered, they look it as easy money. Well, another has just found its just not that way.

I'm not a religous person, nor do I knock those that are. But if you want to be totally honest wvbjplayer, what you describe as devaststing losses can easily be described as the inevitable happening to you. That to me that is no divine intervention, its just the unfortunate truth.

well said Mr Bojack!
and who was it i think it was Einstein (fairly smart guy with moral principles) that said in essence, "the stomach of mankind has directed the course of history more so than any other organ" lol
but probably the first caveman that burnt his finger with the first man made fire might have pondered if fire making in order to cook dinner was an inherently seedy, depraved, gluttonous activity . lol
but i guess as with anything God has either set up the world or allowed it to be set up in such a way that seedy results are realized as a result of depraved gluttonous activity rather than conciously well understood discerned activity.
probably there is no way in the final analysis to overcome the all encompassing rule of entropy as the universe and spirit of mankind does what ever it is doing. but doesn't it seem strange that how ever and why ever it happened that there should exist a phenomenon such as blackjack for which a bit of discernment and a minimal amount of physical effort can actually produce currency that can be converted into realization of much greater discernment and physical effort? i'd call that a blessing rather than a punishment. lol