Splitting 8's vs dealer 10

[revrac]

At what point should you stop splitting 8's vs a dealers 10 if surrender isn't allowed? Is it at the same point that you should surrender if it was allowed? I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but feel at some high count it stops making sense to split 8's vs a 10 and even possibly a 9.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

I personally just don't do it with big bets out for variance reasons. I don't know what the index is.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

At what point should you stop splitting 8's vs a dealers 10 if surrender isn't allowed? Is it at the same point that you should surrender if it was allowed? I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but feel at some high count it stops making sense to split 8's vs a 10 and even possibly a 9.

No you surrender 88 vs. 10 at a relatively low count, pretty much any positive count. If you can't surrender, stand on 88 vs. 10 somewhere around where your max bet goes out.

 

[revrac]

No you surrender 88 vs. 10 at a relatively low count, pretty much any positive count. If you can't surrender, stand on 88 vs. 10 somewhere around where your max bet goes out.

Great, thanks!

 

[David Lane]

Splitting 8's vs 10

Splitting 8's is considered a defensive move where you supposedly lose less in the long run. I always hated that strategy.

 

[NightStalker]

Depends

At what point should you stop splitting 8's vs a dealers 10 if surrender isn't allowed? Is it at the same point that you should surrender if it was allowed? I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but feel at some high count it stops making sense to split 8's vs a 10 and even possibly a 9.

Best move for hi-lo count
<+1: Split
>+1: Surrender > Split >Stand

I never stand, always split...

 

[aslan]

No you surrender 88 vs. 10 at a relatively low count, pretty much any positive count. If you can't surrender, stand on 88 vs. 10 somewhere around where your max bet goes out.

Where there is no surrender, is standing appreciably better than splitting at pivot point and beyond?

 

[ArcticInferno]

Surrender is best, but if surrender isn’t available, then,...
Splitting 8’s is a form of loss control.
You’re going to lose 16 vs 10. The question is, how much will you lose?
By splitting the 8’s, you lose less.
You turn a hideous hand (16) into two hands that are not as hideous.
Splitting 8’s is a defensive split, while splitting Aces is an offensive split.
According to the indices (Standford Wong), you split the 8’s vs 10 when
the count is not ultra-high, e.g. if TC is less than 6 or 8.
When was the last time you saw a TC of 6 or 8 while playing a shoe game?

 

[metronome]

Where there is no surrender, is standing appreciably better than splitting at pivot point and beyond?

I would think at the pivot or higher, you stand, esp. @ DD.
Better yet, dealer has ace up, I'll take my insurance at 1 below pivot ( or higher ) thank you very much.

 

[aslan]

Surrender is best, but if surrender isn’t available, then,...
Splitting 8’s is a form of loss control.
You’re going to lose 16 vs 10. The question is, how much will you lose?
By splitting the 8’s, you lose less.
You turn a hideous hand (16) into two hands that are not as hideous.
Splitting 8’s is a defensive split, while splitting Aces is an offensive split.
According to the indices (Standford Wong), you split the 8’s vs 10 when
the count is not ultra-high, e.g. if TC is less than 6 or 8.
When was the last time you saw a TC of 6 or 8 while playing a shoe game?

Ummmm.....every session I play shoe games.

 

[aslan]

I would think at the pivot or higher, you stand, esp. @ DD.
Better yet, dealer has ace up, I'll take my insurance at 1 below pivot ( or higher ) thank you very much.

Does anyone know how much standing improves EV over splitting at pivot and higher?

 

[ArcticInferno]

Okay, okay.
Maybe I was a bit exaggerating, but I think you're too.
EVERY session? Hmmm,...

 

[UK-21]

Does anyone know how much standing improves EV over splitting at pivot and higher?

6 Deck shoe, S17, DOA, DAS, RSA, NSurr, (off the top of course).


Hand . . . . . Standing . . . Hitting . . . . Doubling . . . Splitting
8,8 vs T . . .-0.53685 . . -0.53536 . -1.07072 . . .-0.4748

Six and a bit percent difference between splitting and standing, virtually nothing between hitting and standing although if you're counting the remaining composition will affect this and will tilt the odds at plus counts.

IMHO, the difference between splittng and standing certainly isn't enough to justify the risk of splitting when I've a max bet out. I have stated this before and received a slagging from the maths purests who contribute to this forum.

 

[revrac]

6 Deck shoe, S17, DOA, DAS, RSA, NSurr, (off the top of course).


Hand . . . . . Standing . . . Hitting . . . . Doubling . . . Splitting
8,8 vs T . . .-0.53685 . . -0.53536 . -1.07072 . . .-0.4748

Six and a bit percent difference between splitting and standing, virtually nothing between hitting and standing although if you're counting the remaining composition will affect this and will tilt the odds at plus counts.

IMHO, the difference between splittng and standing certainly isn't enough to justify the risk of splitting when I've a max bet out. I have stated this before and received a slagging from the maths purests who contribute to this forum.

Yeah, there has to be a point where it isn't worth it though even from a pure math perspective. Say you have two 8's, there are 2 cards left and due to the count you know they are both 10's and so is the dealers downcard, at that point your losing either way, but one your taking twice the loss.

 

[bj21abc]

The index is lower if you factor in risk aversion (as Blue Efficacy hinted at).
Last sim I ran (for a 6D DAS, risk averse) showed stand at TC +4.


D.

Surrender is best, but if surrender isn’t available, then,...
Splitting 8’s is a form of loss control.
You’re going to lose 16 vs 10. The question is, how much will you lose?
By splitting the 8’s, you lose less.
You turn a hideous hand (16) into two hands that are not as hideous.
Splitting 8’s is a defensive split, while splitting Aces is an offensive split.
According to the indices (Standford Wong), you split the 8’s vs 10 when
the count is not ultra-high, e.g. if TC is less than 6 or 8.
When was the last time you saw a TC of 6 or 8 while playing a shoe game?

 

[k_c]

Where there is no surrender, is standing appreciably better than splitting at pivot point and beyond?

Below image shows EVs for 8-8 vs T for 6 decks, NDAS at KO pivot with 155 cards remaining. Split strategy is to split and stand on 16. With this strategy it is best to split twice even though 3 splits are allowed.

If hand is split and strategy is to stand on 17 then standing on 8-8 is greater EV than splitting.

If late surrender is offered then surrender is the best option at pivot point for either NDAS or DAS.

For NDAS if running count increased to much over the pivot then standing becomes preferable to splitting, so pivot can serve as the index for this play.

If DAS is allowed then split EV increases by about 2% at pivot and splitting remains preferable to standing at KO pivot, so index will be beyond pivot for this play, maybe KO TC of +2.5 or so.

This data is for about 3 decks/6 remaining at KO pivot.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

The index is lower if you factor in risk aversion (as Blue Efficacy hinted at).
Last sim I ran (for a 6D DAS, risk averse) showed stand at TC +4.


D.

Sounds right, and it might be less in a nDAS game.

My favorite is the surrender play, that is nice and risk averse. Gets the ploppies guessing too.

 

[Renzey]

Where there is no surrender, is standing appreciably better than splitting at pivot point and beyond?

My simulator says that for 8/8 vs. 10 with no surrender, that splitting is -.525 EV and standing is -.550 EV at +4 TC (KO pivot). The raw index for no longer splitting is +8 TC.

 

[k_c]

My simulator says that for 8/8 vs. 10 with no surrender, that splitting is -.525 EV and standing is -.550 EV at +4 TC (KO pivot). The raw index for no longer splitting is +8 TC.

That must be for DAS,

 

[aslan]

My simulator says that for 8/8 vs. 10 with no surrender, that splitting is -.525 EV and standing is -.550 EV at +4 TC (KO pivot). The raw index for no longer splitting is +8 TC.

Thank you.

Thank you, too, k_c.

Aslan