Update on first real effort...

[dilbert46]

So I thought after your guys’ help and discussion on session lengths, I thought I would give you an update as to how things went for my “first sustained effort” in counting in Reno.

For the most part, I played SD, H17, D10. Recap: I am a low-roller, and kept to a 1-4 spread ($5-$20). Here are some things I learned: The biggest thing I had to overcome was not the counting per-se, but the mechanics of the counting. While I can count down a deck in decent time, that doesn’t necessarily help get into the right rhythm as to what to count, and when. Initially, I found myself counting the same cards twice. Finally, I was able to find a rhythm that worked for me and found that 1st base gave me the best lay of the land to do that.

Like I said, the first day I was still figuring out the right rhythm and was having difficulty. I was at Circus and found out the dealers had this annoying habit of quickly flipping over and grabbing their cards all in the same motion whenever everyone else busted. I had to really watch to catch the hole card before it got swept up. But, because I was still figuring things out, things did not go well there and I moved on. I also played the Sands, which had a little better game, and then Cal-Neva. At the end of the day, I was down about $400.

The second day I got up early in the morning (0330) and found it was easy to find a table I could play heads-up with (or with one other person) at Cal-Neva. I started to find the right mechanics and things were coming together. I played 1.5 hours and earned back $200. I still found myself dropping the count occasionally when there were lots of cards being thrown around with splits and whatnot. Fortunately being SD it was not too long before it started over again.

I went back to Circus and ran into the same problem with the hole card. Plus there were more people there, so it was hard to play with zero or 1 other person at the table. Again, I had problems there. Went back to Cal-Neva and did OK. I did learn there were a lot of people, including dealers, who wanted to tell me I was playing the hand wrong though I knew otherwise (e.g. A7 v 10). I finally had to tell one guy to back off and let my play my own hand. I also got to watch one guy get chocked out by security:grin:

The end of the second day I was still down and was beginning to get a little discouraged. My last morning there I just decided to relax, enjoy the ride, and trust in the system while understanding the role of EV. Things really started to click for me with my rhythm. I think I also experienced my first bout with some heat. I was playing heads-up (Cal-Neva) and noticed the dealer was giving me some great pen and I was doing well. Suddenly the PB came over and I heard him tell the dealer he was dealing too many hands each deck and to knock it off. I decided to flat bet for a little while longer and got out of there shortly after that.

I returned that evening and ended up playing with three older gentlemen who were drunk and throwing around $100-$500 per bet. I understood all the attention was on them and decided to use it stay longer. Also, it helped the table limit was raised to $10 but I was grandfathered in. This allowed me to play heads-up for a long time after the older guys had long busted out. In the end, I walked away +$700 from Cal Neva and came home with more money than I left with.

Another thing I learned: For months I had been practicing and training for the SD game I knew I would be playing in Reno. I used a great Android app “Advantage Blackjack” hours a day and that really helped. However, whenever I would switch to 6D or DD and the BS chart was slightly different I had some difficulty in flipping back and forth. Plus the mechanics were once again different with 6D. Overall I learned I still need to practice and study, study, study. I learned the indices really came in handy, especially for insurance. I learned a lot from you guys and I look forward to learning some more. I know this is long, but I wanted to show my appreciation to this site and the knowledge therein and the people on it. Thank you very much!

 

[kewljason]

I have always thought counting down a deck in XX seconds is meaningless. I see players advise new player to practice until they can achieve a certain time and it's just doesn't translate into the real world. Accuracy is what matters. The player controls the speed of the game, more so than dealer. You can slow the dealer down simply by taking a few seconds to make your playing decisions. Even obvious ones. :laugh: While mostly I seek out quick dealers, there are times when I go out of my way to slow one down. Sometimes for spite. Sometimes just for fun. You can actually throw them off their game and they start making errors.

 

[riggler]

I have always thought counting down a deck in XX seconds is meaningless.

I have to agree to a certain extent. All it does is make you associate values with the cards at a glance.

During real play you should be cancelling out groupings of cards, only having a need to count the "left overs."

 

[Friendo]

Counting down Decks

I'm in my neophyte phase, so this issue is still fresh for me.

I could count down a deck (Mentor) in under 20 seconds. I practiced for months counting down 1-, 2-, and 6-deck stacks in clumps of 2, 3, 4, and 5 cards at a time. Before bed I would count down a single deck 10 times. It became a nervous habit.

As for actual play, I worked at the kitchen table and on Casino Verité for a few dozen hours until I thought I was pretty good at true-count conversion and the basic index plays, and my end-of-shoe counts were dead on most of the time.

Still, a healthy chunk of my preparation before hitting the tables was counting down decks.

Then I went to real casinos. Uh-oh. I could keep the count, and play better than a doofus, but I was nowhere near any sort of rhythm which would make this activity anything but exhausting. Typical situations, like remembering that you still need to count that hand at third base - was it 5,8 or 5,3? - while first base splits and resplits 3's, turning two of the hands into 6-card 20s, really rattled me. Counting down a deck fast establishes a steady rhythm of cancellation and addition which has little to do with the fits and starts at a real casino.

My first hours at the tables were more tiring than digging ditches.

Back at home, I played Casino Verité with the speed cranked up, to the point that my eyes hurt from looking at the screen, and stopped counting down decks. I forced myself to make plays immediately, far faster than I'd have to in a casino, guessing the true count if it wasn't immediate: stress and more stress, so as to make a real casino seem like a welcome relief in comparison.

After a few months of this, I returned to the casinos. No problem. Counting is still work, and I can't carry on decent conversations, but I don't stare at the table, and my subconscious carries some of the load.

In Catch-22 there's a passage like "Shooting skeet was good training for the men - it trained them to shoot skeet." Similarly, if you count down decks you will become quite proficient at counting down decks.

I can report that my countdown time for a single deck has deteriorated to well above 25 seconds. I put all my practice time into sickeningly long sessions on Casino Verité - I dread it when Cassie says "Place your bets!" - and my real casino hours will only exceed my CVBJ hours at some point in May.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Nice post man. Yeah you gotta pay attention so you don't double count cards and if its hand dealt make sure you either count them as they are shown or wait until their whole hand is turned over.

 

[Shoofly]

I have always thought counting down a deck in XX seconds is meaningless.

I agree. I have never seen the value in counting down decks. However, many people think it is valuable. I have never mentioned it because it didn't seem important enough to start an argument over.

 

[metronome]

In Catch-22 there's a passage like "Shooting skeet was good training for the men - it trained them to shoot skeet."

Nice post. Sittin' and counting down a deck or eight doesn't prepare you for true play, and neophytes come to the realization quickly once they play for real.

 

[alwayssplitaces]

I find it frustrating to play a single deck game with more than 2 others since the count changes so rapidly.

 

[aslan]

I have always thought counting down a deck in XX seconds is meaningless. I see players advise new player to practice until they can achieve a certain time and it's just doesn't translate into the real world. Accuracy is what matters. The player controls the speed of the game, more so than dealer. You can slow the dealer down simply by taking a few seconds to make your playing decisions. Even obvious ones. :laugh: While mostly I seek out quick dealers, there are times when I go out of my way to slow one down. Sometimes for spite. Sometimes just for fun. You can actually throw them off their game and they start making errors.

When I first began counting, pits would often put a speed demon dealer on me, realizing (I'm guessing) that I was a neophyte at card counting. It was quite a while before I realized what you said above, the player controls the speed of the game. I find it is actually very beneficial to control the speed rather than allow the dealer to set the pace because it gives you the feeling (emotionally and psychologically) of being in control. When the dealer sets the pace, I often begin "feeling" I am being hustled or dominated, even though I know that speed alone does not give the house any additional real advantage (in fact it gives the counting player the advantage). I may be overemphasizing it, but I feel controlling the psychology of play is very important to my game.

 

[aslan]

I agree. I have never seen the value in counting down decks. However, many people think it is valuable. I have never mentioned it because it didn't seem important enough to start an argument over.

I was never very good at counting down decks nor did I ever feel it was that important once I got my feet wet in real life play. If you have no trouble keeping the count in real play, it matters not what your count down speed is.

 

[dilbert46]

When I first began counting, pits would often put a speed demon dealer on me, realizing (I'm guessing) that I was a neophyte at card counting. It was quite a while before I realized what you said above, the player controls the speed of the game. I find it is actually very beneficial to control the speed rather than allow the dealer to set the pace because it gives you the feeling (emotionally and psychologically) of being in control. When the dealer sets the pace, I often begin "feeling" I am being hustled or dominated, even though I know that speed alone does not give the house any additional real advantage (in fact it gives the counting player the advantage). I may be overemphasizing it, but I feel controlling the psychology of play is very important to my game.

This is what I ended up doing: I held up my decision to collect my thoughts on the count before making the play. It really helped me to slow things down. This seemed easier to do on SD as no one could see what I had and was waiting to see me make an easy decision. Also, I did learn to wait until the cards were turned over as a pair rather than catching them one at a time. However, now that 6D is what's available here I'm going to have practice with that.

 

[aslan]

This is what I ended up doing: I held up my decision to collect my thoughts on the count before making the play. It really helped me to slow things down. This seemed easier to do on SD as no one could see what I had and was waiting to see me make an easy decision. Also, I did learn to wait until the cards were turned over as a pair rather than catching them one at a time. However, now that 6D is what's available here I'm going to have practice with that.

Why wouldn't you use the "turning over of each card" as the criteria for counting? It's not that hard, and it keeps the count exactly right for purposes of making decisions, such as insurance. Even the cards you see in your neighbor's loosely held hand are important for keeping the count as up to date as possible.

 

[dilbert46]

It was more a way to know that I didn't double count cards. It's certainly not a perfect solution but it worked for me.

 

[BUZZARD]

However, now that 6D is what's available here I'm going to have practice with that.

If your struggling, your going to get crushed. Hell, you have a good chance of getting crushed in the near term if you play perfectly. Play some 6 deck. IMO heads up single deck is very challenging, especially with a balanced count and is a tough spot to learn at first. Try an unbalanced count out if you continue to struggle.

Obviously, playing a good balanced count at a pitch game is the strongest option, but if you find you cannot do it extremely well and continue fudging around the count, you are going to lose hard and fast. You know all this I'm sure but I just wanted to testify how delightful and stress free a face up game with no TC conversion is.

 

[dilbert46]

Actually I was using an unbalanced count (KO). And after awhile, I found a rhythym that worked for me and was able to keep the count even when the cards were flying out. Once that happened, then I really started seeing results. That being said, I know I still need A LOT of practice.

 

[alwayssplitaces]

When I first began counting, pits would often put a speed demon dealer on me, realizing (I'm guessing) that I was a neophyte at card counting. It was quite a while before I realized what you said above, the player controls the speed of the game. I find it is actually very beneficial to control the speed rather than allow the dealer to set the pace because it gives you the feeling (emotionally and psychologically) of being in control. When the dealer sets the pace, I often begin "feeling" I am being hustled or dominated, even though I know that speed alone does not give the house any additional real advantage (in fact it gives the counting player the advantage). I may be overemphasizing it, but I feel controlling the psychology of play is very important to my game.

A fast dealer is good for experienced counters, more hands per hour.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Count Your Toes?

If you aren't going to learn to count by holding cards in your hand then what are you going to do? This is the beginners drill, to count down 1 deck in 30 seconds or less. If you can't count 1 viewed card then you can't progress to multi cards, fanned cards, dealt cards, playing hands etc. After you can count a deck in 30 seconds then you are skilled enough to progress to the harder drills. If you can't recognize 1 card with speed how are you going to recognize 2 or more with speed?

The speed factor is so you can "overlearn", you want to be faster at home practicing so you can handle the distractions of the casino enviroment.

The OP probably saw some of those flashed cards he thinks he missed, he possibly was not fast enough to count them.

children learn to count on their fingers and build to calculus, yet rarely do adults count using their fingers. I do, but only in a casino.:joker:

in gymnastics you have lead up skills like tumbling or rolling where a child learns body control before even working on a technical move.

Do we count 1 card at a time when playing, probably not to often, but counting 1 card at a time is a "lead up skill"

terms to look up to further understand the above:
overlearn (ing)
lead up skill (s)

 

[kewljason]

If you aren't going to learn to count by holding cards in your hand then what are you going to do? This is the beginners drill, to count down 1 deck in 30 seconds or less. If you can't count 1 viewed card then you can't progress to multi cards, fanned cards, dealt cards, playing hands etc. After you can count a deck in 30 seconds then you are skilled enough to progress to the harder drills. If you can't recognize 1 card with speed how are you going to recognize 2 or more with speed?

Do we count 1 card at a time when playing, probably not to often, but counting 1 card at a time is a "lead up skill"

Interesting, but certainly not the only way to go. I learned to count by holding cards as you suggest. I just didn't flip them one at at time. Instead I bought 8 used decks at the casino gift store and dealt out hands to myself and 4 other imaginary players at the kitchen table, simulating the game I was playing at the time in Atlantic City. This way I not only learned to count, but also could practice playing out not only my hand, but all of the hands, making the proper playing decision for the count. I still do this 3 or 4 times a week. I also did pretty much the same, playing blackjack on computer. Preferred the yahoo site where there are a number of players playing and you could set the speed of the game.

 

[aslan]

A fast dealer is good for experienced counters, more hands per hour.

Wake up, always! Why do you think I said in what you quoted, "Even though I know that speed alone does not give the house any additional real advantage (in fact it gives the counting player the advantage)." The advantage I was talking about is more hands per hour.

 

[blackjack avenger]

We Agree

Interesting, but certainly not the only way to go. I learned to count by holding cards as you suggest. I just didn't flip them one at at time. Instead I bought 8 used decks at the casino gift store and dealt out hands to myself and 4 other imaginary players at the kitchen table, simulating the game I was playing at the time in Atlantic City. This way I not only learned to count, but also could practice playing out not only my hand, but all of the hands, making the proper playing decision for the count. I still do this 3 or 4 times a week. I also did pretty much the same, playing blackjack on computer. Preferred the yahoo site where there are a number of players playing and you could set the speed of the game.

You still did the act of recognizig one card at a time, you just skipped the easiest skill and went to a harder drill. Only a study would determine which way was faster in learning. Also, only a study would determine wether holding physical cards vs cards on a screen would be faster for learning. I would guess the computer could be a faster learning tool because no down time shuffling, all things being equal.