Vegas sucks for average gamblers!

Discussion in 'Las Vegas' started by Cardcounter, Apr 16, 2010.

  1. Cardcounter

    Cardcounter Well-Known Member

    I went to Vegas for the first time for one day. The blackjack rules where absolutely horrible for low rollers $10 minimum a hand. They had 6 deck shoes with continus shufflers, hit soft 17. In New york, New York I saw an 8 deck 6-5 game. The Bellejo is an unbelievably nice hotel and casino but you have to play a $100 a hand minimum to get good double deck rules. On an empty table I asked if they would lower the minimum because it was a super juicy game just too rich for me and they wouldn't accomediate me. The rules for $10 a hand minimum players suck they are like 6 deck shoes, continus shufflers, and hit soft 17. I thought in vegas they stayed on soft 17.

    Hooters Casino has the worst $100 slot promotion in history. They advertised a $100 in free slot play so I went over there to check it out. The value of that $100 in free slot play was under $1. The deal was this they would stick a $100 bill into a machine you would get 20 credits and if you got it up to 1,700 credits you would win $50!
  2. fwb

    fwb Well-Known Member

    Next time try downtown (Binions, El Cortez, etc.). There are some tables down there that are just as good (if not better), with $5-10 mins. But don't expect to get away with big spreads.
  3. b jay cobbson

    b jay cobbson Active Member

    Next time you visit...

    ...plan to stay for more than one day, get yourself a rental car and a copy of Current Blackjack News. There is whole world of casinos that aren't on the Strip or Downtown and most no more than a half hour drive.

    Give it a try and good luck!

  4. Yes, if you can play a $25 min you can get perfectly good games. You can walk around spreading $25-$200 all day, with decent win rate and probably no heat.
  5. ihate17

    ihate17 Well-Known Member

    The strip is for $25 and above players

    At Mirage you can find a DD game for $25 where the dealer stays on soft 17, but the same exact game at Bellagio is often $100 but sometimes $50. Many MGM owned casinos have 6D, S-17 tables but never for under $25 and often they are hidden in the back of the casino. Games up front are generally the worst games just to attract the sucker who has to play the first table they see.

    Off the strip you can find some decent H-17 DD games that are decent because of pen, but big spread should equal short sessions.
    The poster who said get a copy of CBJN is giving you good advice, especially on a first trip to Vegas. Once you check out CBJN you will find that you can save a lot of time and shoe leather by eliminating many casinos (including everything offered by HET), but CBJN does not tell you everything. There are a few games not mentioned and when they say pen varies, you have to be there to see just how much pen can vary in the same casino sometimes.
  6. Lonesome Gambler

    Lonesome Gambler Well-Known Member

    Midweek, you can always find 6D H17 games with otherwise good rules for $5-10 at MGM, NY, Mirage, and a few others. On weekends and peak times, you'll likely find $15 minimums. Like mentioned before, downtown has a few gems. There are also great games (better than the strip for low-rollers) slightly off the strip that are more than worth driving to if you have a car.
  7. tribute

    tribute Well-Known Member

    After many trips to Vegas, I hardly ever go downtown. I did enjoy playing at Fitzgeralds with low minimums and decent rules last trip. I always find good games at Mandalay Bay, Montecarlo, Bellagio, and Imperial Palace.
  8. 21forme

    21forme Well-Known Member

    MC and IP? What are you finding there?
  9. tribute

    tribute Well-Known Member

    It's been a few months ago. Montecarlo six deck, S17, DOA, DAS, RSA, $10
    IP $10 DD with similar rules.
  10. muppet

    muppet Well-Known Member

    i was at IP a few weeks ago and no DD there. and not at MC either :(
  11. ChefJJ

    ChefJJ Well-Known Member

    Going Back to the Original Post...

    How does Vegas suck for "average gamblers"?

    There are tons of casinos for practically all preferences, limits, and other hokey stuff. Sure, the 6:5 Harrah's games are horrible for anybody, but how does a CSM hurt the average guy? H17 is a hit to the edge, but not a killer. AP is a different subject, of course.

    Sorry to detract from the conversation that has resulted.

    good luck :joker:
  12. tribute

    tribute Well-Known Member

    I think Las Vegas is a fun place for "average" gamblers. All the average people I know go and have a blast. Serious players like Cardcounter may have a more difficult time with finding ideal conditions.
  13. shadroch

    shadroch Well-Known Member

    I never expected to see "serious" and 'Cardcounter" in the same sentence, except when he posted it himself.
  14. chichow

    chichow Well-Known Member

    You sure MC has no DD even in HL?
  15. muppet

    muppet Well-Known Member

    err they mighta had 1 dd table in the hl room at memory is a little fuzzy
  16. StudiodeKadent

    StudiodeKadent Well-Known Member

    Define "average gambler"?

    For a non-AP basic strategy player, 0.47% HE games can be found at $10 per hand, and 0.26% HE games can be found for $25 at most of the MGM properties, if the Wizard of Vegas blackjack survey is correct.

    Of course, things are better in midweek ceteris paribus, but the point still stands.

    It is unfortunate that some places keep tightening up conditions. Although from a casino's perspective, I can see why.

    Lets assume a casino can offer a stingy game or a liberal rules game.

    The problem is that most of the people that truly, strongly care for a liberal rules game are informed players, i.e. either basic strategy players or advantage players. This means, essentially, liberal rules won't attract the kind of players casinos like (i.e. dumb drunk fratboy jerks that don't know how to gamble correctly and just want to piss money away and scream "IM IN VEGAS! WOOO!!!!"). Instead, it will attract AP's and basic strategists.

    So, from a casino's perspective, good rules promote the casino to the least profitable kind of clients.

    Now, I won't claim this is true for each individual client. I for one am happy to flat-bet and play basic strategy only at a casino that offers better games/lower table mins than the competition, simply because I am old fashioned and believe a casino like that deserves to be rewarded. I also do not play BJ for money, I play it for fun, and over the long run (and after factoring in comps) BS BJ is very cheap fun. However, many people are NOT like this in their dealings with casinos.

    I'm an economist. I could pretend that most customers cared about house edges and behaved rationally. But the simple fact that people actually play at Harrah's Vegas properties when there are MGM properties next door with better games at similar table limits proves this fallacious.

    Most people go into a casino with very little information and a lot of pessimism. They don't even contemplate the possibility of getting value for their money.

    This strange fatalism is one of the primary factors that allows casinos to get away with what they do. Someone raises house edges, the average consumer says "who cares, I was screwed from the start anyway."

    So, either a casino's games extract more money from the pessimistic customer, OR the casino's games extract significantly less from the informed customer AND less from the pessimistic ones.

    From the casino's stand point, its a no-brainer.

    The only real possible solution is a smarter consumer base that truly cares for a good game and will be more than happy to allow said good game to be profitable for the house.

    I don't think card counters are to blame for this. Card counters take at most a small amount of money and the price of CSMs is far too high relative to the amount counters actually take on the kinds of tables CSMs are used on (low limit tables).

    The short answer is that the actual demand for good games, even the knowledge of what constitutes a good game, is much lower than the demand for "any game at all."

    That said, I don't think all is lost. If the general demand for better games increases, and advantage play is kept to a minimum (and preferably kept to small tables) I think that the resultant market segment would be quite a boon to a casino in terms of player loyalty. And loyal players mean other businesses in a casino (restaurants etc) benefit.
  17. muppet

    muppet Well-Known Member

    1 in the HL room, $100 min

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