- Thread starter JoeV
- Start date

JoeV said:

Is there anyone on this board who has reached it yet?

JoeV said:

And if you have what does it mean,

JoeV said:

does it mean its impossible to lose the profits you have gained through playing up to this point.

JoeV said:

When do you realize you have attained it?

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=4891

JoeV said:

This phrase is spoken by counters like a christian talks about heaven.

-Sonny-

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The long term is what will happen over an extended period.

Everyone knows that a coin flip is 50-50. But the chances of getting exactly 5 heads in a sequence of ten is not 50%.Its much,much lower.But,in the long run,the longer you flip,the more towards a 50-50 split you should get.

In BJ,the long run is often referred to as 1,000,000 hands or more.

Elliot Jacobson calls this The Blackjack Zone.Over 1,000,000 or more hands,most things will perform almost exactly as they should,with very little deviation.

Sonny said:

See the link below for an old discussion about it:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=4891

-Sonny-

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=4891

-Sonny-

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Video poker players often use the house N0 to their benefit, meaning, how many hours of play it will take for the house to have a good chance of breaking their bank even though the house has positive EV, and how many thousands of dollars in cashback they will have accrued in that time. It's a satisfying calculation.

The N0 is an interesting number because it gives you an idea of just how much work you have to do to expect to be ahead. Let's say your N0 for a game you play is 20,000 hands. It applies to your first 20K hands, your last 20K hands, your first 10K and last 10K hands together, and to 20K hands selected at random from all the hands you have played.

N0 also applies to individual plays within the game of blackjack (like index plays) and also to the difference between two different ways of making a play. Your insurance bet has an N0. Let's say two level 2 players are having an argument. One of them takes insurance at TC=+6 and the other one takes it at TC=+7. Not only does the insurance bet have an N0 but so does the difference between insurance at +6 and at +7. Homework question: will these two players live long enough to expect to experience a difference between taking insurance at +6 and +7?

Automatic Monkey said:

N0 also applies to individual plays within the game of blackjack (like index plays) and also to the difference between two different ways of making a play. Your insurance bet has an N0. Let's say two level 2 players are having an argument. One of them takes insurance at TC=+6 and the other one takes it at TC=+7. Not only does the insurance bet have an N0 but so does the difference between insurance at +6 and at +7. Homework question: will these two players live long enough to expect to experience a difference between taking insurance at +6 and +7?

SilentBob420BMFJ said:

good luck

If you combine it with cashback of .5% or more, it can be pretty impressive, I guess.

ChefJJ said:

What kind of techniques are there to gaining a +EV in video poker? I ask because I don't play...I have heard that you can play a close to 0 game if you do it right.

good luck

good luck

SilentBob420BMFJ said:

long term is whatever u want it to be..

Monk's question was interesting in that he boiled N0 down to a specific play at a certain count. I don't ever recall this aspect being covered by any author.

asiafever said:

Look at the pay table and play perfect strategy for that particular pay table. If the pay table is good, the game will offer close to if not over 100%, the rest will come with comps and cash backs. If you only want a 100% return game, just double up all the time, it will get closer and closer to 100% every times, just don't do that if you are already in a +EV game since it will get closer and closer to 100% again but that would mean you are loosing money.

If you count or not you always have a certain probabilitiy of winning or loosing after a certain number of hands. Some will consider the 'long term' to be the number of hands until a counter is 99% chance of being in profit, others want 99.9% chance, others 90%, others 99.999999%, others 50%, others count the long term as infinity.

The ironic part about it is that in any game where you have less than 100% chance of winning, and you start with a finite amount of money, then you are bound to eventually loose it all, because eventually you will hit a streak rare enough to wipe you out. You can imagine this easily if you look at it like this:

If you have 10 units you might servive 100 hands. IF you have 10 units it will be much hard to survive 1,000 hands and much much harder to survive 10,000 hands. This even applies when you have a player advantage.

For exmaple if a person has $10,000 is betting say $10 units with a 0.25% house advantage, there is a FINITE average number of games before is loose all his money. This is counter intuitive to many, who think he must eventually win. This is no so.

So no matter how big a player advantage you have, the real answer is that 'in the long run' you can never win, even if you are 99.95% player advantage.

dacium said:

So no matter how big a player advantage you have, the real answer is that 'in the long run' you can never win, even if you are 99.95% player advantage.

The problem with your theory is that it doesn’t take into account the player’s accumulated winnings. Sure, if you start with 10 units then it us unlikely that you will survive for 10,000 hands, but if you do then you will have amassed enough money to withstand a pretty big streak of negative variance. As Don Schlesinger says “If they don’t get you in the beginning, they probably won’t” (paraphrased from BJA).

dacium said:

'long term' is a term used by idiots who have no concept of probability nor how to apply it.

dacium said:

Some will consider the 'long term' to be the number of hands until a counter is 99% chance of being in profit…

-Sonny-

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dacium said:

....

So no matter how big a player advantage you have, the real answer is that 'in the long run' you can never win, even if you are 99.95% player advantage.

So no matter how big a player advantage you have, the real answer is that 'in the long run' you can never win, even if you are 99.95% player advantage.

Let me digress to physics and the two-body gravitational problem. We know that all object which have mass exert a gravitational force on each other, and that force is the product of the masses, a general gravitational constant, and the squareof the distance between them, right? So no matter how far away two objects are, they are exerting force on each other (there's even a force between Uranus and your anus) (sorry, that joke isn't as funny to those who don't speak US English), therefore if you were to launch an object in projectile motion off the earth, no matter how hard or how far, it's bound to return to earth because the gravitational attraction will never go away and sooner or later it has to overcome the outward momentum of the launched object, right?

Wrong. There's the matter of

Of course, this does not mean you are immune from bankruptcy, for your infinite losing streak could begin on your very next trip to the casino. (You should have seen what happened to me playing a video poker promotion last week! Oy! I couldn't buy quads! :cry: ) But it does make you immune from certain bankruptcy.

ScottH said:

Yeah, the double feature is +EV with comps. It is still +EV for machines that pay over 100%, even though it "gets you closer to 100%". The only thing is you might do better to not play the double up feature for comps when the payout is over 100% because it might not make you as much as the actual game does.

asiafever said:

You don't get cash back or comps when you use the double up feature, else they would give you money for a neutral EV game that requires no strategy and that have chances to push, therefore you would only loose 23 times out 52 and get comped for that! If your machine have a negative EV, let's say 99.54, and the casino gives you cash back on your play, let's say 0.5%, then you would have an average return of 100.04% because it's like adding .005 units payout to everything. If you double up on every win, you will get closer and closer to 100%. If your basic game have a return under 100% and you want to reach a special status then you can use the double up feature and you will basically reach diamond status without spending money (in EV term), but if your game + cash back already have a return over 100% then the double feature is useless and it slows you down.

I've never heard of getting cash back on all play, win and losses. If they only give you back some of your losses, the game is still -EV.