Where angels fear to go or "My day at the 6:5 table"

#1
I started playing 6:5 single deck in earnest late last winter. At first it was just as a way to leave a six deck table that had gone deep in negative numbers. Instead of pretending to play slots or back count another shoe table i'd play heads up if a 6:5 game was available. I hate the seemingly endless back counting necessary to get an advantage at shoe games. Plus I'm a noticeable person in a casino. They call our types "Buzzards".

So I kept my eyes open for any completely empty 6:5 tables. That's the key: EMPTY. I won't join these games even if there is just one other player. Now I may stay in the game a while if one other player joins after me but not starting out.

Things I'm looking for:

Better than 50% penetration

Speedy dealer but not who appears too savvy and hip to counters.

A young dealer who doesn't appear to be a "Company" type.


With a 50% penetration I will win at this game but every once in a while I will find one who consistently goes past 66%. THAT'S my dealer. One guy almost deals the cards down to the last three or so while playing heads up.


Technique:

Generally spread 4 to 1 but with a few exceptions. At a $15.00 or $10.00 minimum deck I will bet $25.00 at most neutral counts and a hundred when it goes up. If the deck goes way low I may bet the minumum until the shuffle.

Occasionally I will ramp things up to a couple hundred bucks which would make for a rare rare 8 to 1 spread. Like when I push or win a hundred dollar bet and the count goes even higher.

This makes me look like a gambler: Parlaying my wins (or chasing losses!) and doubling up.

First bet usually is two spots at $25.00 each. All nickels if possible. Especially if the penetration is over 50%. Reasoning? Will use up cards quicker to get to the high count (if the deck does go high) and as a camouflage since pit critters are looking for those robot counters who constantly start low and raise their bets in direct proportion to the count. And by betting two spots I leave open the possibility of playing more spots later in the deck.

Sometimes the dealer will allow me to vary the spots. Others will not let me return to playing two spots after i switch to one. They treat this kinda like a "mid show entry" thing.

If the deck goes past the halfway point I may split a few tens against weak dealer upcards like 4, 5, or 6. Sometimes when playing two spots I may avoid hitting my first hand (if it's a soft against weak dealer upcard) and save it for the second spot if it's a ten or eleven doubling opportunity.

No sense wasting a ten on a soft 17 when there is a total of ten or eleven on the second spot.



Results:

No astronomical gains but a nice income. A typical hour spent this way will average me about three hundred dollars with comparatively little flux. The main problem of course is the unpredictability. I insist upon playing heads up only. When that third person comes in (or second player is playing two spots) I always leave. On a busy evening there will be few empty tables so forget about weekends or most evenings.

The best time to pull this off is weekdays. Either mornings after sun up or afternoons.

If there are no empty single deck tables i will just go back to the shoe games and backcount. Or go home. I really don't enjoy backcounting.

About the lower 21/natural payoffs: I haven't missed them that much. Sometimes it seems like most my naturals come on fluke bets: Minimum bets placed at low counts where the 3:2 wouldn't have paid that much extra anyway. Someone suggested I double my naturals but I haven't done this yet and probably won't. The main advantage here is the single player heads up advantage with a deck dealt at least halfway through. And when it goes past 66%? Well that's almost gravy.

By spreading usually 4 to 1 with rare 8 to 1 high count exceptions I haven't had any heat so far.

So most of my gains are due to knowing the schedule of the casino or keeping an inventory of when they have empty tables.

You won't get rich this way and you will leave a lot of tables due to excessive players joining in but it works. At least as a profitable hobby.
 
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Pro21

Well-Known Member
#2
Not sure where you are playing but you can pick up heat for this in Vegas. Some joints are very paranoid. I remember some years back seeing a Griffin flier for someone betting RED chips on 6-5. :laugh:
 
#3
Irishman, if you think that you have an advantage with a 1-4 @ 65% on 6/5...
I want some of that medical marijuana you are smoking. zg
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#4
Even if a 1-4 spread doesn't provide an advantage, and merely reduces the disadvantage, is SD 6/5 really that damaging for the average recreational counter betting low levels for entertainment? On $10 table, assuming 100 hands per hour and five naturals in that time, that's a disadvantage of $15 over a 3/2 game (probably not even the equivalent of a round of drinks, or the cost of the cab downtown to play a SD game with a "proper" 3/2 payout).

I think there does come a point where the percentages become a mute point, and the actual $/£ value that falls out of the bottom of a calculation is what needs to be considered. Personal loan rates are another good example - the difference between 6% and 8% is 33%, but if the actual additional cost is cents/pennies each month, so what?

I've posted about this in the past - whether it's really that much more of a disadvantage to play a full table 6/8 deck shoe, or heads up against the dealer on a SD 6/5 - and just about always taken a slagging for it.

AnIrishmannot2brite wrote at the end of his posting "You won't get rich this way and you will leave a lot of tables due to excessive players joining in but it works. At least as a profitable hobby". If he's having fun and winning, good luck to him.
 
#5
Remarkable

Remarkable but also possibly too short term, meaning you've been very lucky with this spread scoring $300 an hour in this horridly crummy game. In AC they hit soft 17 in ADDITION to the 6to5 and you can't double down after a split making it an impossible game to attempt to have any advantage to speak of. Do you play someplace where they have somewhat better rules than that or something?

It just doesn't seem to work out mathematically with a 4:1 spread but it's not like I'm going to focus on the subject too very much because it's not like I'm ever going to be playing against that sort of insurmountable house advantage at all for ANY spread. Even though I would never bet one plug nickel at this particular game I DO enjoy watching others play it!

I was watching a guy in Caesar's sometime way back when that was very obviously a counter as his bets correlated to the count dead on. He was spreading roughly 10:1 and got SLAUGHTERED. I am used to seeing casual players getting beaten up at this game... it is expected. This was a real eye opener as to just how badly those rules make it and give the casino an insurmountable house advantage. I wondered why the guy was playing it, since he obviously had the bankroll to be playing a better quality game. I was strolling from "point A to point B" and paused to watch the action at that particular table on that particular day and didn't stick around long enough to see if he ever swung it back but in general I watch people get beaten badly at single deck 6:5, H17 with no doubles after splits regardless of their playing ability.
 

matt21

Well-Known Member
#6
AnIrishmannot2brite said:
You won't get rich this way and you will leave a lot of tables due to excessive players joining in but it works. At least as a profitable hobby.

hey nice report :)

can i ask you....

BJ paying 6:5 adds 1.39% to house advantage, 'no DAS' adds another 0.14% - so we are now looking at a house advantge of approx -2% off the top. This means we approximately need TC of +4 just to get to a level where the playing field is even.
Wouldn't that make it very difficult to actually produce a THEORETICAL profit?
Have you played many hours in this type of scenario?
 

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#8
matt21 said:
hey nice report :)

can i ask you....

BJ paying 6:5 adds 1.39% to house advantage, 'no DAS' adds another 0.14% - so we are now looking at a house advantge of approx -2% off the top. This means we approximately need TC of +4 just to get to a level where the playing field is even.
Wouldn't that make it very difficult to actually produce a THEORETICAL profit?
Have you played many hours in this type of scenario?
I might be wrong about this Matt, but if theres NDAS, you dont add this to the HA. Only if theres DAS, do you add .14 to the players edge.

Kinda like RSA, adds .05 for the player. But if theres no NRSA you dont add that extra gain from RSA, to the house's edge if you cant re-split aces.

Like I said, im not sure about this so forgive me, if im mistaken.
 
#10
matt21 said:
hey nice report :)

can i ask you....

BJ paying 6:5 adds 1.39% to house advantage, 'no DAS' adds another 0.14% - so we are now looking at a house advantge of approx -2% off the top. This means we approximately need TC of +4 just to get to a level where the playing field is even.
Wouldn't that make it very difficult to actually produce a THEORETICAL profit?
Have you played many hours in this type of scenario?
Oh yes I'm familiar with the stats on single deck and no DAS. However the thing that none of these computer runs have shown me (that i know of as of today and yet so far) are demonstrations of heads up playing single deck with better than 50% penetration.

Then try 60%, 65% or the guy I know of at ----- (casino named deleted) who practically deals down the the last card!

At 60% pen you are practically shooting fish in a barrel. I have no idea why some of our bright minds here haven't figured this out yet. They probably just haven't tried it yet. 6:5 single deck is an ugly sister to other hand held games which pay 3:2

So lacking any computer simulation programs mimicking 6:5 single deck (at good pen/heads up) I'm left with my own single deck of cards, play chips and spare time.

In my own dry runs I have once "lost" about a grand in forty five minutes (the spirit witch kept pulling naturals over my twenties). But at the casino itself I have never had a losing session. Nothing worth speaking about anyway. I'm sure eventually that the day is coming when I may drop a grand or two at a heads up game. But I just haven't done this yet!

Again: At my own play games at home I have gone down a grand or so but I've always recouped the imaginary loss within a half hour to an hour. I practice both with 50% penetration and then somewhere around 60% tp 65% pen. It works!

What may need some caution here is the actual amount of heads up play you can get at a casino at single deck 6:5. The "$300.00 per hour" I quoted could appear misleading without an explanation. It only applies to those times when I can get a solid hour play of single player alone with the dealer. I usually won't get more than an hour and a half per day or until I get sick of hanging around a casino.

This 6:5 heads up single deck play isn't a huge advantage. No pie in the sky. It's more like a scraping of the bottom of the barrel. But it's a tasty barrel. And beats the hell out of backcounting a half dozen HUGE shoes that never seem to go high enough or have players backed up around the table trying to play it.

What good is a +20 deck if the table is full, you have to muscle your way to a spot and it only happens maybe once every twelve hours?

Seen in this regard heads up play at 6:5 single deck is a real possibility for those folks looking for alternatives to backcounting. Or as a secondary strategy when all goes south at the six deck shoes.

Or you (like Z/G) can say I'm full of B/S. all fine with me. Please please don't believe any of this stuff as i wouldn't want the word to go around and see casinos take counter measures (wink)...
 
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Renzey

Well-Known Member
#11
AnIrishmannot2brite said:
Oh yes I'm familiar with the stats on single deck and no DAS. However the thing that none of these computer runs have shown me (that i know of as of yet so far) are demonstrations of heads up playing single deck with better than 50% penetration.[/I.


Just ran a quick 10 million hand sim for single deck 6-to-5 with DOA and H17 (1.6% HA); heads up, 55% pen, no preferential shuffling and a 1-to-10 spread -- Hi/lo Count using 60 index plays.

Player EV was -0.56% with a standard error of 0.05% for that sample size.
Bets began ramping up at +3 true (due to the extra percentage gain from the index plays), incrementing every half TC and reaching 10u at +5 TC.

Those are better rules, spread, pen and dealing conditions than I've seen in most 6-to-5 games. I don't know where to take it from there.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#12
Renzey said:
Just ran a quick 10 million hand sim for single deck 6-to-5 with DOA and H17 (1.6% HA); heads up, 55% pen, no preferential shuffling and a 1-to-10 spread -- Hi/lo Count using 60 index plays. Player EV was -0.56%. .
Ran another 180 million of the same game, this time with 65% pen. Player EV improved to -0.03% with a standard error of 0.01%.
 

ohbehave

Well-Known Member
#14
Renzey said:
Ran another 180 million of the same game, this time with 65% pen. Player EV improved to -0.03% with a standard error of 0.01%.
Why not ramp beginning at TC+1? Could you run that to see the effect?
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
#15
ohbehave said:
Why not ramp beginning at TC+1? Could you run that to see the effect?
Because of the 6-to-5 blackjack payoff, the player's EV at +1 TC is still a healthy negative. It becomes barely positive at +3 TC -- and that's with DOA!
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#17
Renzey said:
Ran another 180 million of the same game, this time with 65% pen. Player EV improved to -0.03% with a standard error of 0.01%.
Mr R. Many thanks for running these Sims. It's bourne out what I've suspected since I took up BJ, in that although 6-5 SD ain't great, for someone who counts and can play heads up (so the advantage when it comes isn't shared) it's something to consider - especially when the alternatives aren't much better. When I've posted previously about 6-5 SD, I'm sure if I'd lived in the States I would have been visited by a lynching posse.

There's a chapter in Mr Snyder's BBiBJ on depth charging single deck games. I never read it when I first started, as there aren't any SD games in the UK (to the best of my knowledge - casinos have the option of offering it, but the payout would have to be the Gambling Commission's standard ruleset 3/2). In it he states that with good pen on SD even 6/5 games are beatable, although the issue of course is getting away with a sufficient spread; 1-12+??

So, info for when I visit LV with Mrs Newb . . . where is it possible to get away with a spread of 1-12+ on the SD 6/5 tables on the strip? Answers by PM please.
 

Katweezel

Well-Known Member
#19
Gambling Commission

newb99 said:
Just out of interest, when was SD 6/5 blackjack first introduced ?
Newb, you have a 'Gambling Commission' in the UK that makes sure BJ gets paid at 3:2, is that right? Does it have any teeth, or is it a toothless tiger? I think something like that might be a good idea for Australia, where at the moment, the public is getting stiffed left, right and centre by monopolies in bed with revenue-hungry state governments. :cat:
 

UK-21

Well-Known Member
#20
Katweezel said:
Newb, you have a 'Gambling Commission' in the UK that makes sure BJ gets paid at 3:2, is that right? Does it have any teeth, or is it a toothless tiger? I think something like that might be a good idea for Australia, where at the moment, the public is getting stiffed left, right and centre by monopolies in bed with revenue-hungry state governments. :cat:
We do. A quick search of the web will find the site. There is a PDF download of all of the proscribed rulesets for all casino games in the UK, and no changes to rules or payouts without prior authorisation from the GC are allowed. They have recently relaxed the requirement to obtain prior approval to offer promos (such as BJ plays 2-1 for certain times of the day etc) and only advance notice now needs to be given for such things. I'm pretty sure that reductions in payouts would need to be agreed in advance.

I can't see that the GC would ever agree to a casino licencee altering the BJ payout to 6-5, as the only reason to do this would be to increase the HE and so it wouldn't have a mutual benefit for the gaming public. They also kicked into touch an approach from Shufflemaster Inc along the lines that the GC should insist that all licencees in the UK use CSMs on all table games - as their Greek equivalent has done. They've left it down to individual licencees to decide. So probably more integrity with the UK's GC than their counterparts oversees. However did the Nevada State Gaming whatever agree to BJ payouts being downgraded to 6-5???? Or have the casinos got around it by not calling it Blackjack, but "21" or something similar?
 
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