Which System...

[Jeff Dubya]

I kinda asked this question in another forum... but didn't get the answer I needed. Therefore, I am asking it again here.

I need to choose a counting system. This will be my first attempt to learn a counting system. I need to choose from these nine, because they are available as part of a training package for my Palm Pilot.

So here are the choices:

- Red 7 Improved
- Tamburin High-Low
- Uston Ace-Five
- Uston Advanced P/M
- Uston Simple P/M
- High-Low
- Basic Action
- HiOpt I System
- Omega II System

Since I know NOTHING about any of these, I would appreciate it if all of you who have much more experience than I would assist me in amking a decision.

After the decision is made, I am going to buy a book about that system and use the computer for drills. If you help me make a choice, and know of a particularly good book, I sure would appreciate that information as well.

Thanks in advance. I look forward to your responses.

 

[Mackhack]

It depends whether you wanna make "millions" or if you are just a recreational player.

If second... I would rather learn KO-Count.

 

[DoctorDubb]

Im also in the same boat here. Im looking at learning a car counting technique but dont know exactly which one. Also on a side note i live in Perth, Western Australia, over here we have CSM's in use (Blackjack is dealers sits on soft 17 and CSM's use 4 decks). Now i already know that card-counting and CSM's dont go togther but i had a thought. If you sit at third base (i think thats wat its called .. ie last to act before the dealer). On busy nites (friday, saturday) so you would have 6 players before you. That means that on average you would have about 20 cards out on the table before you had to make a move.. on a 4 deck game that penetration of 10%..Now i would still paly BS but on say sumthing liek a 12 vs 2 or sumthing like that (such close odds). Could i use card-counting to increase my chances of winning?? it wouldnt be much...but hey any increase must be better...Then my question is what is the best card-counting technique that least depends on penetration as they would be the best i would think? Keep in mind im goin to learn one anyway...

Cheers,
Steve

 

[SystemsTrader]

I tried 3 systems in the casino before I found one I liked, so I suggest you try out some different ones yourself. Don't let someone else make the decision for you. I think the most important decision you could make is not which one makes the most money but which one could you actually master in a casino.

 

[I just like semi-circles]

Let me start by saying math is not my strong suit, so I wanted something EASY. K-O was the answer. Extremely easy to learn (being unbalanced, there's no conversion to a true count needed). Hi-Lo requires this conversion. I'm not looking to make my living playing BJ, so the more complicated counting methods were not for me. Not worth all the extra work for someone like me. I was able to use the KO count in a casino in a relatively short time after reading the book. It didn't take as long as the book said to put the system to use. The book says it will take most people quite some time to use in a casino atmosphere with all the distractions, but I was using it at the casino (accurately) with not a lot of hours of practice. Again, let me state that I'm no math genius by any stretch. If math is a strong point with you, you won't need months of practice to use the KO system. It will take very little time to put into use.

 

[Jeff Dubya]

Unfortunately, I would like to choose from the list above... again, these are part of a software trainer.

As to what kind of player I want to be... I would like to win a hundred bucks or more each time I sit down. No, I don't want to do this professionally, but yeah, I would love to make some money doing it.

 

[Mikeaber]

Unfortunately, I would like to choose from the list above... again, these are part of a software trainer.

As to what kind of player I want to be... I would like to win a hundred bucks or more each time I sit down. No, I don't want to do this professionally, but yeah, I would love to make some money doing it.

Someone check my math here as well as my "assumptions".

My understanding is that with most counting methods, the player can enjoy a 1.5% increase in advantage if played perfectly and if you can avoid the heat from the Pits and Survelence. If you are playing a 6-deck game, that would put you at around a 1% positive expectation. A little less maybe but call it 1%.

Now, if you wish to figure out what it would take to net $100 per session, then you would have to be prepared to wager, in total, $10,000 each session. How many hands that is would depend on the average size of your wager. For instance, If you spread your bets $25 to $125, I would guess that your average bet would be around $30 or $35. That may be low. But I know from experience that you will spend most of your hands at even or negative counts where you bet the minimums. At $35 average per hand, you would be playing 285 hands. Your bankroll for such a session would need to be in the thousands.

I might also note that the 1% positive expectation is figured over the long haul. 285 hands is definitely NOT the long haul. Ask any pro....there are going to be large swings in winning and loosing sessions. It's the nature of the beast. You will loose a lot of your largest wagers even though the deck is weighing in your favor...VARIANCE.

You're going to have to at the very minimum, be a very serious Blackjack player indeed to finance those sessions in order to realize that goal.

 

[Jeff Dubya]

Wow, I guess I am really beating the odds then.

I have played three times this week, for about 1 1/2 hours each visit, and won $100 two times. Lost $50 once. So, on average I am only winning $50 a visit right now.

 

[neemo6]

From the ones you listed I would say the red7 is the easiest to learn and use. Since it is an unbalanced system and no need for true count conversion, and there are only 6 strategy indices to learn. For more info read "Blackbelt in Blackjack" by Arnold Snyder.

 

[Mikeaber]

Wow, I guess I am really beating the odds then.

I have played three times this week, for about 1 1/2 hours each visit, and won $100 two times. Lost $50 once. So, on average I am only winning $50 a visit right now.

I'm not in the least trying to rain on your parade ManRay. But keep the results of the mathematical expectations in mind and don't get discouraged when you play three times, win $50 once and loost $100 twice! As I said...there are swings in both directions whether you are counting or just playing BS. You'll seldom stick to that 1% figure in any given session. It will just average out to that after many, many trips!

 

[Jeff Dubya]

It's no problem and I appreciate your advice. I could go on and on about the undisciplined play and undisciplined fiscal strategy I am observing every day, even with my level of experience I can see what works and what doesn't.

Some days I win, some days I lose. I just want to do everything I can to educate myself so that my winning or break-even days outnumber those losing ones.

Neemo - that's good news, because as it happens, Red7 is included in the purchase price, many of the others cost extra money to add to the program.

Are you familiar with the K-O Count System mentioned above? I mean... I suppose I don't have to use the computer trainer, if there is something better for my particular style of game...

 

[Jeff Dubya]

But keep the results of the mathematical expectations in mind and don't get discouraged when you play three times, win $50 once and loose $100 twice!

Since I only BRING $50 to the casino - I shouldn't get creamed too bad that way. (It's close, local. If I played less frequently and had to travel, you point would hit home.) But I still get your point.

 

[I just like semi-circles]

Manray, I play with a similar outlook as you do. I look for $100-$200 in a session, and I'm out of there. Hit and run if you will. I'm satisfied with a smaller amount, rather than playing longer and giving it back. In my experience, on MOST playing sessions, you will most likely be up at one point or another (not always). To me, this game swings both ways during a session, and I like to leave when I have even a little of their $$$. I play $10 and $15 tables, and with learning the KO count it has helped in my style of play quite a bit. I have only recently started keeping track of my play. 8 of my last 9 sessions were winners. (I also had a good winning % before that, but I never kept track of it). I know there will be variance, but if I can leave in positive territory, I won't stay trying to win more and end up giving it all back. Take it in little bits. To me, greed will hurt you more than "variance". Trust me, with the K-O count, you won't have to practice on your computer. I didn't. Follow the instructions in the book, then buy a few decks of cards, and have someone deal them out like you were at the casino. In no time, you'll be counting with little effort. KO is easy to learn, and well worth buying the book.

 

[Mikeaber]

It's no problem and I appreciate your advice. I could go on and on about the undisciplined play and undisciplined fiscal strategy I am observing every day, even with my level of experience I can see what works and what doesn't.

Some days I win, some days I lose. I just want to do everything I can to educate myself so that my winning or break-even days outnumber those losing ones.

Neemo - that's good news, because as it happens, Red7 is included in the purchase price, many of the others cost extra money to add to the program.

Are you familiar with the K-O Count System mentioned above? I mean... I suppose I don't have to use the computer trainer, if there is something better for my particular style of game...

You can check out the fundamentals of K-O at http://www.koblackjack.com/ (Archive copy) They give the complete details for KO-Rookie which will give you a .69% positive Expectation with double-deck and a 1-5 spread.

 

[E-town-guy]

I suggest going on google and typing in BJ counting systems. You should find a site that gives you a breakdown of each one of them, or at least most of the ones you've listed. Then you can try and approximate which would suit your style. Obviously some are more difficult than others but they do offer slightly more of an edge to a player. Keep in mind you'll need to count the cards quickly in a casino environment and at the same time possibly keep track of aces, number of cards in the discard rack, and try to talk once in a while with the other players/dealer.

 

[E-town-guy]

Here's a good site to learn about some different counting strategies:
http://www.qfit.com/blackjack-strategy.htm

For some of the counting systems it suggests books you can read. The site also offers a BJ advisor where you answer a few questions and it suggests a counting system to fit your needs.

 

[Jeff Dubya]

Mike, Semi...

Using K-O, am I correct in that in order to use their system you must also use their own basic strategy table?

 

[I just like semi-circles]

Manray, with KO you use regular basic strategy. Same as if you were not counting. There are a few minor changes when the count reaches a certain point, such as standing on 16 vs. dealer 10. Not many things to memorize, and there is even a beginner's method called KO rookie where you just play basic strategy with no changes. KO is much easier to learn than other counting methods, even if you decide to use the few minor changes when the count dictates. For low rollers like us, I definitely recommend you get the KO book.

 

[SweetAxtion]

=I have only recently started keeping track of my play. 8 of my last 9 sessions were winners. (I also had a good winning % before that, but I never kept track of it)..

I'm curious to know what your winning % is once you get it going over a hundred sessions or so. I've tracked my % over the past 4 years and it is over 80% with this year particularly good at 89%.

I've been told that this means nothing by "professional card counters" because even "players who use the martingale system can have a winning record" but still lose money.

The reason why I am curious to know about your experiences is because I don't know many others who "hit and run" so to speak once they are up. The philosophy of quitting while you are ahead and having enough bankroll to back this of course is one that I employ. Couple this with discipline and not being greedy, I think it could do ok.

 

[I just like semi-circles]

Sweet... I only recently started keeping track because I'm now counting with KO. Before that it was just BS. I can say I was well ahead just using BS because of the "hit and run" philosophy. My playing style has always been win a couple hundred and out I go. The same goes when I'm down in a session. If I get down a couple hundred I'm gone, so I will never be down overall with more winning sessions than down sessions as you mentioned about Martingale bettors.. (Went to Vegas this summer, used this philosophy, and played for 3 days. What seemed like a million sessions, turned $1000 into $4000, just a little bit at a time. My biggest win before leaving the table was probably $300). As I said, I think most, but not all, sessions you'll be up at least a little bit sometime during that session, and when I am, I take it and leave. That's just my opinion. In the long run, it has worked well. I have seen time and time again, players along side me that are well ahead, with stacks of chips on the table, only to see them keep playing until they give it all back and then some. I'm sure you have seen this happen a lot. It's pure and simply greed at work. I say never be afraid to leave when your up, even if it's only by a little. All the little wins add up to a big win. When I began keeping track of my play I put aside $200 in an envelope to bring with me to the casino. (I'm a low roller, but the amount you start with is all relative). The envelope now has $1000 in it, so I have effectively increased the starting amount by 5 fold by not being greedy and leaving the table when I am ahead by a small amount. I also like the lower minimum tables, because you can put out $10 per hand when the count is lousy, instead of throwing $25, $50, or $100 at a bad count. This usually saves a lot of grief, because you can always put out the bigger $$ when the count is good.Everyone may have a different philosophy about minimums and when to leave the table, but this one has worked for me. Just my two cents.