Wonging In

#1
Hey guys new poster here.

I just started learning to count cards and have made several trips to the casino. I'm using the red 7 count. I wong in at a running count of +3 or higher and always bet 1 unit (I don't have a very big bankroll to risk at the moment). The casino I've been playing at uses 6 decks and the penetration is 4.5/6. Now for my questions.

(1) During one of my recent trips, I sat backcounting through about 4-5 shoes and the running count never went positive. At two shoes the count even got to -30 or lower. How likely is it that the count will never get to +3 or higher under these playing conditions?

(2) When should I stop backcounting (b/c the count is too low and unlikely to get positive) and go find a new table?

(3) Christmas break starts pretty soon so I plan on going to the casino pretty frequently. There's 2 casinos near by where I live. Both are fairly small casinos. They have about 8 tables of blackjack going at a time. Suppose I spent 20 hours a week at each casino. Is backcounting and only coming in at running counts of +3 or higher going to make it obvious that I'm counting cards?

Thanks in advance for any help!
 
Last edited:

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#2
stevo123 said:
Hey guys new poster here.

I just started learning to count cards and have made several trips to the casino. I'm using the red 7 count. I wong in at a running count of +3 or higher and always bet 1 unit (I don't have a very big bankroll to risk at the moment). The casino I've been playing at uses 6 decks and the penetration is 4.5/6. Now for my questions.

(1) During one of my recent trips, I sat backcounting through about 4-5 shoes and the running count never went positive. At two shoes the count even got to -30 or lower. How likely is it that the count will never get to +3 or higher under these playing conditions?

(2) When should I stop backcounting (b/c the count is too low and unlikely to get positive) and go find a new table?

(3) Christmas break starts pretty soon so I plan on going to the casino pretty frequently. There's 2 casinos near by where I live. Both are fairly small casinos. They have about 8 tables of blackjack going at a time. Suppose I spent 20 hours a week at each casino. Is backcounting and only coming in at running counts of +3 or higher going to make it obvious that I'm counting cards?

Thanks in advance for any help!
I think you should only backcount in AC or LV. You backcount at 2 casinos for 20 hours a week. They will know what you are doing.
 
#3
BJgenius007 said:
I think you should only backcount in AC or LV. You backcount at 2 casinos for 20 hours a week. They will know what you are doing.
So basically I gotta play the entire shoe and use a spread? Hmm I don't think I can afford that right now. Are there any ways I can avoid being caught backcounting?
 

Solo player

Well-Known Member
#5
stevo123 said:
Hey guys new poster here.

I just started learning to count cards and have made several trips to the casino. I'm using the red 7 count. I wong in at a running count of +3 or higher and always bet 1 unit (I don't have a very big bankroll to risk at the moment). The casino I've been playing at uses 6 decks and the penetration is 4.5/6. Now for my questions.

(1) During one of my recent trips, I sat backcounting through about 4-5 shoes and the running count never went positive. At two shoes the count even got to -30 or lower. How likely is it that the count will never get to +3 or higher under these playing conditions?

(2) When should I stop backcounting (b/c the count is too low and unlikely to get positive) and go find a new table?

(3) Christmas break starts pretty soon so I plan on going to the casino pretty frequently. There's 2 casinos near by where I live. Both are fairly small casinos. They have about 8 tables of blackjack going at a time. Suppose I spent 20 hours a week at each casino. Is backcounting and only coming in at running counts of +3 or higher going to make it obvious that I'm counting cards?

Thanks in advance for any help!
Are you sure your new to the game?
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#6
stevo123 said:
So basically I gotta play the entire shoe and use a spread? Hmm I don't think I can afford that right now. Are there any ways I can avoid being caught backcounting?
The real risk you are facing is not so much playing-all with wong out, but losing in plus counts at max bet. So long as you wong out when the count goes too far south, you will generally be all right. It's the big losses at max bet that hurt, and you will get them no matter whether you wong in or play-all. Don't get me wrong, wonging in is still better than play-all with wong out, but neutral and slightly negative counts is not generally where the big bucks are lost.
 

bigplayer

Well-Known Member
#7
stevo123 said:
Hey guys new poster here.

I just started learning to count cards and have made several trips to the casino. I'm using the red 7 count. I wong in at a running count of +3 or higher and always bet 1 unit (I don't have a very big bankroll to risk at the moment). The casino I've been playing at uses 6 decks and the penetration is 4.5/6. Now for my questions.

(1) During one of my recent trips, I sat backcounting through about 4-5 shoes and the running count never went positive. At two shoes the count even got to -30 or lower. How likely is it that the count will never get to +3 or higher under these playing conditions?

(2) When should I stop backcounting (b/c the count is too low and unlikely to get positive) and go find a new table?

(3) Christmas break starts pretty soon so I plan on going to the casino pretty frequently. There's 2 casinos near by where I live. Both are fairly small casinos. They have about 8 tables of blackjack going at a time. Suppose I spent 20 hours a week at each casino. Is backcounting and only coming in at running counts of +3 or higher going to make it obvious that I'm counting cards?

Thanks in advance for any help!
Wong in sooner...what are you waiting for...at the pivot you have a 1% advantage. Come in at the Pivot Point, usually 0, depart to greener pastures anytime the running count drops below -3x the number of decks unseen. (i.e, with 5 decks to go leave the table at -15). Once you wong-in continue to play until the count drops below -2x the number of unseen then leave to watch another table. Just keep moving and don't look like you're just standing there counting down shoes.
 

Shoofly

Well-Known Member
#8
bigplayer said:
Wong in sooner...what are you waiting for...at the pivot you have a 1% advantage. Come in at the Pivot Point, usually 0, depart to greener pastures anytime the running count drops below -3x the number of decks unseen. (i.e, with 5 decks to go leave the table at -15). Once you wong-in continue to play until the count drops below -2x the number of unseen then leave to watch another table. Just keep moving and don't look like you're just standing there counting down shoes.
Great advice. I would add that in my wonging excursions, I go at a busy time, usually Friday or Saturday night. More tables are open and the place is crowded (but can't be so crowded that you can't find a seat). People are drinking and partying more on those nights, making it more possible to disappear into the crowd.
 
#9
Solo player said:
Are you sure your new to the game?
Yea I got a blackbelt in blackjack about a month or so ago and started reading that. I've gone to the casino about 4 times now. I'm in school right now so I don't have a lot of time to read/play at the moment.

aslan said:
The real risk you are facing is not so much playing-all with wong out, but losing in plus counts at max bet. So long as you wong out when the count goes too far south, you will generally be all right. It's the big losses at max bet that hurt, and you will get them no matter whether you wong in or play-all. Don't get me wrong, wonging in is still better than play-all with wong out, but neutral and slightly negative counts is not generally where the big bucks are lost.
Yea the thing was though, when I was wonging I was only betting 1 unit no matter what. I was doing that b/c I figured I have an edge over the house every hand I play so I don't need a spread to make up for hands I play at -ev. I've been doing this b/c I'm low on cash and can't really afford to have a spread at the moment.

bigplayer said:
Wong in sooner...what are you waiting for...at the pivot you have a 1% advantage. Come in at the Pivot Point, usually 0, depart to greener pastures anytime the running count drops below -3x the number of decks unseen. (i.e, with 5 decks to go leave the table at -15). Once you wong-in continue to play until the count drops below -2x the number of unseen then leave to watch another table. Just keep moving and don't look like you're just standing there counting down shoes.
Yea I probably should come in earlier, I dunno I was reading some forums on wonging and saw a few people recommended coming in at +3. But why not play as soon as it hits the pivot b/c I have an advantage then? Thanks for the info I'll try that out.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#11
stevo123 said:
What do you mean by shill lol? Looked it up on google, but I'm seeing a lot of different definitions.
I gave up trying to figure that sentence out. Shill didn't make sense, nor did skill or still. I thought maybe it was just me. :eek:
 
#12
Anybody know a good book on wonging in?

Also I was searching through the forums and saw people saying you should backcount two tables at the same time. I'm having trouble seeing how you would go about doing this. I find it hard enough to find a good spot to stand where I can see the cards at just one table. There's always new people sitting down and getting in my line of site of the table. I also find that I have to stand almost right on top of the players sitting at the table to be able to see over people and see the cards. Additionally, the casinos I play at don't have very many tables going at the same time (probably around 4-8 tables going at a time) and it seems unlikely I would come across 2 tables next to each other that are both starting a new shoe. I know I could backcount one table that has just started a new shoe and then as soon as a nearby table starts a new shoe begin backcounting that table. But it seems like the odds of fresh shoes lining up at similar times are pretty unlikely which greatly reduces the advantages of this strategy. I don't know maybe the casinos I'm at just have too few tables to employ this strategy.
 

Shoofly

Well-Known Member
#14
stevo123 said:
Anybody know a good book on wonging in?

Also I was searching through the forums and saw people saying you should backcount two tables at the same time. I'm having trouble seeing how you would go about doing this. I find it hard enough to find a good spot to stand where I can see the cards at just one table. There's always new people sitting down and getting in my line of site of the table. I also find that I have to stand almost right on top of the players sitting at the table to be able to see over people and see the cards. Additionally, the casinos I play at don't have very many tables going at the same time (probably around 4-8 tables going at a time) and it seems unlikely I would come across 2 tables next to each other that are both starting a new shoe. I know I could backcount one table that has just started a new shoe and then as soon as a nearby table starts a new shoe begin backcounting that table. But it seems like the odds of fresh shoes lining up at similar times are pretty unlikely which greatly reduces the advantages of this strategy. I don't know maybe the casinos I'm at just have too few tables to employ this strategy.
Back counting is probably not effective with 4 tables open. Maybe with 8 tables, but you actually need more.

A few suggestions: See "Professional Blackjack" by Stanford Wong, Page 36, about entering a game in progress. This will increase your opportunities. Also, you can play higher minimum tables. For example, if you usually play $10 min. tables, you could now back count a $25 table and jump in when the count reaches the point where you would be playing that amount. Recognize the cards by pips rather than numbers. This will allow you to stand a bit further away. I, too, have a hard time counting 2 tables for a long period of time; but can count 2 tables for a few hands, and then concentrate on the table with a superior count and abandon the other.
 
#15
Shoofly said:
Back counting is probably not effective with 4 tables open. Maybe with 8 tables, but you actually need more.

A few suggestions: See "Professional Blackjack" by Stanford Wong, Page 36, about entering a game in progress. This will increase your opportunities. Also, you can play higher minimum tables. For example, if you usually play $10 min. tables, you could now back count a $25 table and jump in when the count reaches the point where you would be playing that amount. Recognize the cards by pips rather than numbers. This will allow you to stand a bit further away. I, too, have a hard time counting 2 tables for a long period of time; but can count 2 tables for a few hands, and then concentrate on the table with a superior count and abandon the other.
Thanks for the post that was very helpful.

As to the part about being able to play higher stake tables when backcounting, I was backcounting so I could just bet one unit at a time since every hand I play I'm playing at an advantage. I'm mainly doing this b/c I have a very low bankroll. I started with $200 and am at $380 right now. How much do you think I could risk betting per hand if I'm wonging in when the count gets positive and wonging out as soon as it goes negative?
 
#17
underfunded

Wait for a low medium advantage
Enter & bet table minimum
Leave for new table when you don't have an advantage

You will most likely go broke
You are likely to get known as an AP so when you get money they won't let you play.
 

Shoofly

Well-Known Member
#18
blackjack avenger said:
Wait for a low medium advantage
Enter & bet table minimum
Leave for new table when you don't have an advantage

You will most likely go broke
You are likely to get known as an AP so when you get money they won't let you play.
I agree that other than waiting until you have a larger BR, this is the best strategy. The only thing I would disagree with is whether you would become known as an AP. If you are betting $10 a hand, I don't think anyone is going to pay any attention to you.
 
#19
stevo123 said:
Thanks for the post that was very helpful.

As to the part about being able to play higher stake tables when backcounting, I was backcounting so I could just bet one unit at a time since every hand I play I'm playing at an advantage. I'm mainly doing this b/c I have a very low bankroll. I started with $200 and am at $380 right now. How much do you think I could risk betting per hand if I'm wonging in when the count gets positive and wonging out as soon as it goes negative?
In my opinion, I would bet no more than $20-$30. You do know that your BR will most likely to go bust, but I also did start with $200 and made it happen. Try to keep accumulating your winnings until you reach the $1k range then you can increase it a little by another $10 or $20. You just got to hope for the positive hot streak winnings. I would wong out when the advantage is even. Don't take ANY chances with negative counts.
 
#20
Thanks for the posts guys.

Yea I knew my bankroll was very low, but there isn't much I can do about that right now. Although I thought I might be alright right now with $380 b/c I'm always betting 1 unit and only playing when I have an advantage.

Suppose I could get together some extra cash, how big should my bankroll be to employ this strategy?

And Blackjack Avenger, do you just think if you backcount and wong in/out for a substantial period of time your going to get caught?
 
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