zengrifter SPREAD YOUR KNOWLEDGE

M

mborrow

Member
#1
#1
Hi,

you have alot of posts and know what your doing.

Do you think i shuold give up on the USton APC strategy and switch it.

I can do it with 100% accuracy, while keeping a Ace Side Count.

Although if the ZEN or MENTOR strategy will be more profitable in 8 deck games then i'd rather be using that strategy.

thanks,
mark.

P.S If you think i should learn one of these new strategies, i don't get to spend alot of time on the computer and would be much better off learning the indices and strategies from a book, so which book would you point me to.

Thanks for the help. :joker:
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#2
#2
mborrow said:
Do you think i shuold give up on the USton APC strategy and switch it. I can do it with 100% accuracy, while keeping a Ace Side Count.
Click to expand...
Uston himself said that his UAPC strategy (as well as HO2) was "obsolete" 20-years ago (Uston On BJ 1985).

The main problem with Ace-neutral systems is that the Ace-count methodlogy employed by most practioners of UAPC, HO2, AOII, and their ilk IS FLAWED - side-counting Aces by estimaing Ace density per 1/4D is not sufficient. In order to accurately side-count Aces for accurate betting you must use a secondary point count: 6s&2s +1 vs As -2. If you don't do this then the amount of work that you are doing will ONLY produce a count EV equivalent (or worse) of a level-2 Ace-reckoned system like Mentor, ZEN, or RPC, etc.

(See -Can Side-Counting Make You a Super Counter? & The "Best" Card Counting System)

I recommend ZEN or Mentor, and if I had to pick just one for you I would say Mentor BECAUSE the current ZEN, as published, uses indices calibrated for 13 cards (1/4D) and this has been shown to be not optimal for accurate betting. (I use the original ZEN '83 52 card TC calibrated indices).

Mentor is equivalent to ZEN and uses a 104-card (2D) true-count index calibration which is quite allright.

I am in the process of reviewing Renzey's BJ Bluebook, but for now I will caution that there is some confusion on his Mentor betting strategy, which we can tweak or otherwise seek his clarification on this board.

So, if you've got a few weks to relearn a system it will be worth it because you will be working smarter, not harder, at the table as a result.

As for books - Mentor is in Bluebook II, I also recommend Snyder's Blackbelt, and Schlesinger's BJ ATTACK. One other very good one that is often overlooked is Uston On BJ (this one does NOT teach a system but imparts a lot of wisdom)

And if you haven't already, also read the Zengrifter Interview. zg
 
Last edited:
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
zengrifter said:
Uston himself said that his UAPC strategy (as well as HO2) was "obsolete" 20-years ago (Uston On BJ 1985).

The main problem with Ace-neutral systems is that the Ace-count methodlogy employed by most practioners of UAPC, HO2, AOII, and their ilk IS FLAWED - side-counting Aces by estimaing Ace density per 1/4D is not sufficient. In order to accurately side-count Aces for accurate betting you must use a secondary point count: 6s&2s +1 vs As -2. If you don't do this then the amount of work that you are doing will ONLY produce a count EV equivalent (or worse) of a level-2 Ace-reckoned system like Mentor, ZEN, or RPC, etc.

(See -Can Side-Counting Make You a Super Counter? & The "Best" Card Counting System)

I recommend ZEN or Mentor, and if I had to pick just one for you I would say Mentor BECAUSE the current ZEN, as published, uses indices calibrated for 13 cards (1/4D) and this has been shown to be not optimal for accurate betting. (I use the original ZEN '83 52 card TC calibrated indices).

Mentor is equivalent to ZEN and uses a 104-card (2D) true-count index calibration which is quite allright.

I am in the process of reviewing Renzey's BJ Bluebook, but for now I will caution that there is some confusion on his Mentor betting strategy, which we can tweak or otherwise seek his clarification on this board.

So, if you've got a few weks to relearn a system it will be worth it because you will be working smarter, not harder, at the table as a result.

As for books - Mentor is in Bluebook II, I also recommend Snyder's Blackbelt, and Schlesinger's BJ ATTACK. One other very good one that is often overlooked is Uston On BJ (this one does NOT teach a system but imparts a lot of wisdom)

And if you haven't already, also read the Zengrifter Interview. zg
Click to expand...
Im pretty sure that the A02 indices are calibrated for 3 decks. Instead of 4 like i previously assumed. Therfore i now subtract 1 at 2D 2,@1.5, 4 @1D 6@ .5 for hard doubles.etc.
Its funny how you mentioned in your interview how lawrence purposely had you overbetting. Bryce does the exact same thing. Why do authors do this?

Also ive been experimenting w/ -2A vs 3&6+1 its confusing as hell.But works!
Ive searched blackjack forum 3? In search of multiparameter charts but to no avail. Any advice on where/how to find it. Basically for now im just adding them together for play of hands as well. i.e. m.c [0]s.c[-6] -6 divided by 3D=-2. justifying hitting 13vs2. Even though its inept. like i said im just fooling around. Thanks jj.
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Wait a minute, i cant count 6's as +1 because their valuaed +2 in A02 opposed to +1 in hi-opt.Or can i? Hmmm...... Criteria: count 4&5's as +1 each. Count 3&7's +1 each. Or count 4&5's +2 each. What gives? Criticsm welcomed!:)
 
M

MEDITANK

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
I highly reccomend BJ Attack by Scheslinger also. Crammed with info and charts. This book will take you to the next level.
 
M

mborrow

Member
#7
#7
Hey zen


Alright im giving in and quitting my several hundred hours of wasted time learning the UAPC count.

Hopefully it gave me some trainign for the less difficult counts.

I live in eastern canada and can only get to 8 deck shoe games if availbile damn CSM are taking over here.


I am going to buy those books and look into the MENTOR strategy that is best for 8 deck shoes is what your saying just wanted to be clear before i waste more time learning unhelpful startegies -)
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
Sonny said:
You can use the spreadsheet below to find the multiparameter indices for any system:

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/Generator.zip (Archive copy)

But don't get too caught up in stuff like that. It requires a lot of concentration and adds very little to your EV.

-Sonny-
Click to expand...
These spreadsheet are all new to me. So forgive me if i ask a obvious or stupid Question. Why is it prompting me for a password when i try to make modifications. If required, what is it? Thanks jj
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
jack said:
These spreadsheet are all new to me. So forgive me if i ask a obvious or stupid Question. Why is it prompting me for a password when i try to make modifications. If required, what is it? Thanks jj
Click to expand...
Most of the spreadsheet is password protected so that you cannot make any changes to it. The only cells you need to change are the count systems tags and the side counts. I think everything else is locked.

-Sonny-
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#10
#10
mborrow said:
Hey zen


Alright im giving in and quitting my several hundred hours of wasted time learning the UAPC count.

Hopefully it gave me some trainign for the less difficult counts.

I live in eastern canada and can only get to 8 deck shoe games if availbile damn CSM are taking over here.


I am going to buy those books and look into the MENTOR strategy that is best for 8 deck shoes is what your saying just wanted to be clear before i waste more time learning unhelpful startegies -)
Click to expand...


Or you can use my count. You won't find anything significantly more powerful for shoes. And it's free!

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/Ben-Franklin-Count.pdf
 
golfnut101

golfnut101

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
no hole card

Hey Monkey

As long as you do not loose your split/double with a no hole card game, can a player still use this count ?
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#13
#13
mborrow said:
I am going to buy those books and look into the MENTOR strategy that is best for 8 deck shoes is what your saying just wanted to be clear before i waste more time learning unhelpful startegies -)
Click to expand...
I would think that Mentor OR RPC is perfect for 8D games... unless anyone thinks that UBZ would be an adequate way to go? zg
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#14
#14
jack said:
Im pretty sure that the A02 indices are calibrated for 3 decks. Instead of 4 like i previously assumed. Therfore i now subtract 1 at 2D 2,@1.5, 4 @1D 6@ .5 for hard doubles.etc.
Click to expand...
Totally inappropriate.

The best thing that you could do with AO2 is to keep your indices but switch your count tags to ZEN. zg

tags (2-A) -

AO2: 1122210-1-2 0
ZEN: 11222100-2-1
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#15
#15
zengrifter said:
I would think that Mentor OR RPC is perfect for 8D games... unless anyone thinks that UBZ would be an adequate way to go? zg
Click to expand...
I use the UBZ for pitch, but for a 8D game you spend way too much time away from the center of the shoe where it pivots. It seems like there's no real substitute for true counting with 8D. But if I were going to use an unbalanced count for 8D (which I have) it would be the BRH-1.
 
M

mborrow

Member
#17
#17
Im lost on which strategy i should use.


I got a $2,000 Bankroll and will probably be playing $5.00 table usually $10 cause $5 aren't availbile often.


What strategy will make me the most money in a 8 deck shoe.

Anyone else play at rama or at fallsview have any input. -)
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
zengrifter said:
Totally inappropriate.

The best thing that you could do with AO2 is to keep your indices but switch your count tags to ZEN. zgtags (2-A) -

AO2: 1122210-1-2 0
ZEN: 11222100-2-1
Click to expand...
zengrifter said:
Totally inappropriate.

Actually, i just neutralize the nine and subtract 1 for every ace i count. It''s a thoughtful compromise between zen and A02.
Click to expand...
 
jack.jackson

jack.jackson

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
mborrow said:
Im lost on which strategy i should use.


I got a $2,000 Bankroll and will probably be playing $5.00 table usually $10 cause $5 aren't availbile often.
What strategy will make me the most money in a 8 deck shoe.

Anyone else play at rama or at fallsview have any input. -)
Click to expand...
Your strategy: Highly recommended: Wonging[backcountig] Table hopping, wonging out[sand bagging] Counting a fresh deck and leaving on negative counts < T.C -3

Count strategy: The one with highest betting effeciency. These tags are the most powerful for betting +3+3+4+4+4+3 0 -1 -4 -4 for 1, as opposed to uston apc .977. But a strategy is only as good as you can use it.
 
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